The Sattler College Podcast
This is the Sattler College Podcast, where President Johnson dives into topics of Relational Discipleship and Academic Excellence with the staff and faculty of Sattler College and beyond.
The Sattler College Podcast
Exploring the Holiness Movement
Wallace Thornton Jr., a minister and independent scholar with deep expertise in the Holiness movement, shares his journey through over 30 years of ministry, which includes teaching church history across three colleges, pastoring, and writing extensively on the Holiness movement. Known for his works like Radical Righteousness and When the Fire Fell, he offers unique insights into the origins and spread of this movement, tracing its influence across denominations and even continents. Wallace explains key themes of the Holiness tradition, including the concept of a second work of grace, entire sanctification, and how it has impacted church communities globally.
Mr. Thornton also discusses the movement’s evolution, exploring "radical Holiness" and how the movement's flexibility allowed it to reach places like Russia, Japan, and Papua New Guinea. This conversation is a journey through history, touching on the theological roots of the Holiness movement, its global expansion, and its impact on Christian thought. Tune in to discover a fresh perspective on faith and the power of historical influence in shaping beliefs and practices.
Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler College.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Introduction and Background
1:03 – What is the Holiness Movement?
3:39 – Origins and Key Figures in the Movement
7:40 – Influence of Phoebe Palmer and the 19th Century Holiness Revival
12:30 – Key Distinctions of Holiness Beliefs
19:10 – Practical Takeaways from Holiness History
26:30 – Stewardship and Accountability in Christian Life
33:00 – Reflections on Spiritual Mentorship and Community
it is october 15th, 2024 and I'm here with wallace thornton jr. Is that right? All right, I just met your son named will and it's named after you, but you run by wallace yes well, I'm gonna.
Zack Johnson:I'm gonna start by just reading a bio about you and then we'll jump right in and you feel free to correct me, or I.
Zack Johnson:I think this was written by your, by you, so it's it'll be hard to go wrong. So wallace thornton jr is a minister, an independent scholar, who holds degrees from the university of kentucky, god's bible school and college and cincinnati bible seminary. His ministry of over 30 years has included teaching church history at three colleges, speaking at numerous conferences and preaching in over a dozen denominations, including a 10-year pastorate and, when the Fire Fell, articles in the Wesleyan Theological Journal and World Christianity and the Fourfold Gospel and contributions to counterpoint dialogue with jury on the holiness movement. He's also served as associate editor of the third edition of the Historical Dictionary of the Holiness Movement. So I feel like the word that's repeated most in your bio is holiness movement. So I can't wait to get into that with you and I just want to say so. I made connections with you through David Eicher, who basically heard when you were coming to Boston and said you have to get him in here. You've had a profound impact on his life, so thank you so much for joining me.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, it's a privilege to be here and it was a privilege to have David Eichler as a student several years ago More years than I'd like to think about but he was a wonderful representation of the Anabaptist tradition in a Holiness Movement setting and we developed a great friendship.
Zack Johnson:Glad to be here and we developed a great friendship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Glad to be here.
Zack Johnson:Well, yeah, so I thought I would just ask you is there anything that you think I should know about you that didn't come out in your bio? I know?
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:we've been chatting or that might be relevant to anybody who just heard your bio and might be listening to what you're about to say. Well, it might seem from the bio that I'm singularly focused on studying the Holoness movement and I'm very dedicated to that. But I do have wide interest and actually, as I mentioned before the podcast, I began college as a chemistry major at Berea College in Kentucky which, interestingly enough, I discovered after I was a student there discovered after I was a student there had roots connected with the Holiness Movement through Charles Finney in Oberlin, and John G Fee, who started Berea, was actually a student at Oberlin and actually wrote a book on Christian perfection. So it has amazed me how far the Holiness Movement has had connections, especially through movements like abolition and temperance.
Zack Johnson:Well, why don't we just start with what the Holiness Movement is as a very basic way to start, and then we can talk about what you've written and what you're passionate about?
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:What is the Holiness Movement to somebody who's never heard about it? All right, well, it's interesting that you were asked, because roughly 200 years ago uh, several scholars would say is when the holiness movement began with the publication of a little book called the Christian Manual by Timothy Merritt. Now, timothy Merritt was a Methodist minister. I don't think he realized at the time how revolutionary the little booklet that he was putting together would be, like many works of God, like Luther with his 95 Theses, not realizing how that would totally revolutionize Christianity in Europe.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:What Merritt did was he took excerpts from John Wesley, from John Fletcher and from some other early Methodists, like Joseph Sutcliffe, and put them together in a little guide to help people achieve Christian perfection, viewed basically as synonymous with entire sanctification, a second work of grace. And that really, I guess, if you have to get at the heart of what the Holiness Movement represents, it is a desire for perfect love, christian perfection, entire sanctification, a second work of grace, distinct from conversion, following conversion, following initial regeneration. And so he put together this little guide and it was amazing what happened. It really unleashed a flood tide of revival across North America, spanning most of the major denominations. There were Congregationalists, like Thomas Upham, there were Quakers, hannah Widdow Smith, there were Baptists like AD Earle, but it was primarily centered in Methodism and these other people latched on to this idea of a secondness, a second experience, and I think it was 1836.
Zack Johnson:And when you say secondness, it's sort of like the second baptism. You mean, yeah, second baptism.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Baptism of the Spirit. You have water baptism with the first work of grace, if you would, and then you would have spirit baptism. Became the language that was used later to describe that. Now there's a lot of debate among scholars of the Holiness movement. Where did that originate, the Holoness Movement? Where did that originate? You could trace it back at least to John Fletcher, who was Wesley's heir apparent, his choice selector replacement to follow him when he died. And fortunately for Fletcher or for Wesley, Fletcher died first, or for Wesley, fletcher died first. So his designated successor turned out to leave first. But Fletcher taught this equation of spirit baptism.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Many people later identified that specifically with the event that took place at Pentecost, so that's when the disciples were entirely sanctified. Now again, that's highly debated. But in 1836, a woman by the name of Phoebe Palmer read the Christian manual. Her sister also was influenced by the Christian manual. I think she actually recommended it to her sister. So Sarah Langford, phoebe Palmer, they were involved in what was called the Tuesday meetings for the promotion of holiness. They were sanctified under the influence of Merritt's work. So many people say that this year would be the 200th anniversary of the Holiness Revival. Going back to the production of Timothy Merritt's manual. Going back to the production of Timothy Merritt's manual, and under Phoebe Palmer's leadership she took over what came to be known as the periodical called Guide to Holiness, and under her leadership it just accomplished phenomenal things. It became a best-selling magazine. If you understand how small America was population-wise, compared to what it is today, it was a leading magazine of the order of some of the leading secular ladies' magazines of the day, and so that's really where the.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Holoness Movement kind of originated. And what was the name of the magazine? It was first, I think, called the Guide to Christian Perfection and then they changed the name. Palmer changed the name to Guide to Holoness Christian Perfection a little bit more of a mouthful, I suppose. And Holoness, you know. From that moment on at least, it became known as the Holoness Revival.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:One of the go-to places to learn more about it is Melvin Dieter's book the Holiness Revival of the 19th Century. Featured this in their studies would be Timothy L Smith, donald W Dayton. David Budde and some of his colleagues recently came out with a book through the University of Pennsylvania no, penn State University on holiness and Pentecostal movements intertwined. Vincent Sonnen did a lot of study of the Holiness movement as a precursor to Pentecostalism. But the Holiness movement is more than a precursor to Pentecostalism. It still exists. Some of its best-known institutional forms would be the Church of the Nazarene, the Wesleyan Church and the Salvation Army Internationally the Korean Evangelical Holiness Church, other indigenous Korean churches, the Papua New Guinea Bible Church. These would all be expressions of the Holiness Movement. Now Dr David Bundy has done a great job of tracing some of the Holoness networks that influence people as diverse as Leo Tolstoy in Russia, and Dostoevsky, I think perhaps as well, and people throughout Asia. Yuji Nakata in Japan, for instance, who is known as the Moody of Japan.
Zack Johnson:It's a global, it's made its way everywhere, right? And what are some of the distinctives of the holiness movement that sort of differentiate it from some of the other churches, or if you're able to answer that in a little bit of a simple way, I don't know a ton about the holiness movement other than some brief encounters with different people who have had brushes with it.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, one of the things that, of course, is the emphasis on the second work. Now, to be honest, the holiness movement in many ways is a child of Methodism. I think one of the things that would distinguish Holiness people today from their earlier Methodist forebears and I'm not talking about Methodists now, but earlier Methodist forebears might have been more of this emphasis on spirit baptism as affecting the entire sanctification. Some scholars would say that in earlier Methodism there was more of a Christological focus, whereas now there may be more of a Newman theological focus, more of an emphasis on earlier Christ as the sanctifier and then later more of the Holy Spirit's role. In that, as far as distinguishing it from other traditions in other ways, the Holiness Movement has, I would say, its flexibility. I mean it really shows up in places that people wouldn't necessarily expect.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:King Shai Kachek's wife, I think, was a devout reader of Lenny Calvin's Streams in the Desert. Oswald Chambers was another best-selling devotional writer associated with the Holiness Movement, and so it's interesting how different people can latch on to things that are gifts from the Holiness Movement, and a lot of times I don't think people even realize where it's coming from. I don't think people even realize where it's coming from Some of the other things that distinguish some elements of the holiness movement have been a commitment to carefulness in lifestyle, particularly when it comes to dress, to entertainment, to observance of Sunday as the Lord's Day, to carefulness in life relationships that you know some circles in the homeless movement have a very strong emphasis against divorce and remarriage, for instance.
Zack Johnson:So like yeah, that makes a lot of sense and then within your scope of work, what have you written about and what have your writings explored, and what are some of your research interests?
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, I will to give credit where credit's due. A lot of my work is built on, directly on, the work of William Cosley. He is the senior editor of the Historical Dictionary of the Holiness Movement that you mentioned earlier, which is scheduled to be released next month Congratulations. The third edition, I should say he edited the first two editions as well, and also I've been strongly influenced by David Bundy, whom I've mentioned, and a lot of what they looked at and I have followed in their wake is the radical holiness networks.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:So sometimes the holiness movement can be viewed as a couple of different constructs, one of them being more of the methodist holiness movement, if you would, those that stayed within the confines of Methodist Episcopal or Methodist Episcopal South, those denominations, those affiliations and some that may have left Methodism but still were very Methodist in their ecclesiology and their way of doing things. Still like the Free Methodist Church, even the Westland Methodist Connection to an extent, though it was connectional they still were very much Methodist. But there were other people that had different ecclesiologies, that had different agendas. They believed in entire sanctification as a second definite work of grace, but they were not committed to having bishops, committed to having bishops. So you would have groups like the Church of God Anderson, the Church of God Holiness, that would have different ecclesiologies, more of a congregational focus, and then you would have other people that would stay in, say, the Baptist fellowship they were already a part of or others, but they believed in entire sanctification, sometimes even using different terminology like higher life. And so the radical holiness movement refers to the development of Wesleyan holiness ideas in groups and contexts that were other than Methodist during the 19th and 20th centuries, including some Methodist churches. That are groups that would take some ideas that were novel for Methodists, for instance premillennialism. And the genius of radical holiness is its ability to nurture the doctrine of entire sanctification in non-Wesleyan context. And, as you mentioned earlier, it's become a global development.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:But there's also another use of the term radical holiness that I have dealt with and that appears in the mid-20th century in a term called sweet radical holiness, sweet radical, sweet radical holiness. Yeah, and part of that was mid-20th century. There were some Holonians, people that said we're changing, we're adopting the larger culture, some of our distinctive, we believe biblical societal norms. They're changing, lines are being blurred and compromise is taking place and worldliness became one of the words that were used to describe this cultural accommodation, and so there were people in some of the older Holiness denominations, like Wesleyan Methodists, free Methodists, church of the Nazarenene, that dissented from this accommodation to popular culture, and men like H Rob French, he Schmuel, spencer Johnson and some of their followers adopted the moniker Sweet Radical Holiness. They helped establish new denominations and other organizations like the Bible Missionary Church, florida Evangelistic Association, and eventually those groups coalesced around a fellowship, a convention called the Interchurch Holiness Convention. It was started by French and Smule, but over time, interestingly enough, that label was basically laid aside for the different label, conservative holiness movement.
Zack Johnson:The sweet, the sweet.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Radical holiness became the conservative holiness movement, although there were some who protested against that change against that development and against what they saw as compromises among some of the IHC people, people like WL King, editor of the Voice of the Nazarene, who maintained till his death that he was a radical. I think he said something like this radical and everything, neutral and nothing.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:It's a little bit different, so there's yeah, so there's actually two uses of radical holiness. One is those earlier networks. There's actually two uses of radical holiness. One is those earlier networks prior to the beginnings of Pentecostalism and in some cases that helped to fuel Pentecostalism in some places around the world. And then this more recent term, sweet radical holiness that basically now most people would use the term conservative holiness movement. But I've studied both of those and the second one more in the first book I did, which was an edited version of my master's thesis, radical Righteousness. The other one, more recently, in a study of the beginnings of God's Bible school, which is one of the older holiness institutions identified with. Concerned Holiness Movement began in 1900, and that one's entitled when the Fire Fell. But God's Bible School is very much a part of this. It was one of the nodes, if you would, in the radical holiness networks.
Zack Johnson:Got it. And so, with all of your research and the books that you've written, what are some of the things that you're passionate about sharing with I'll even say college-age students, as they sort of are trying to make big decisions about their life. I'll even say what church to belong to, what vocation to take. Are there any lessons from your research that you have found that you have then become passionate enough to try to share with other people or, be a little persuasive, with? I know that's a big question, but Well, one of the things.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:As we look at history, I try to look at what are some of the practical takeaways and one of the things I found in in studying the sweet radical hollandist movement with which I identify is.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:I think it is helpful to look at our Methodist forebears and to take a long view, a telescopic view if you would, of history and see how some of the things that we may do that may look the same may have different motivations than what they originated with. So, for example, in our behavioral standards, say dress, or even entertainment, there's a strong emphasis today, and I think really since the modernist fundamentalist controversy, there's been a strong emphasis on separation from the world, which of course is a biblical concept. But as I looked back further, say back to the days of Phoebe, Ponger, could you explain that controversy in 30 seconds that you?
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:just talked about. I know that's hard.
Zack Johnson:Wow. In 30 seconds A lot of people would be familiar with that. Okay.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, things came to a head in the 1920s. Many people look at the Scopes trial, as you know, over evolution in the state of Tennessee. It's kind of the nexus that brought this out to public attention. But for a long time among evangelicals there had been protest about the teachings that were often associated with German higher education literary criticism being applied to scripture, and a lot of people that protested identified themselves as fundamentalists. They said wait a minute. There are fundamental beliefs that you have to adhere to to be a real Christian, and so some of those things would be belief in the virgin birth of Christ and belief in the authority of God's work. Often the term that would be used would be infallibility, earlier and later inerrancy. And then there were other ideas that became very strongly associated. It may not have been one of the primary fundamentals, but they became closely associated with it, for example, the pre-millennial return of Christ. This had a strong influence on a lot of Holiness folk, both of them being kind of populist movements.
Zack Johnson:Okay, sorry, I hijacked you, so that was the controversy, but then you were talking about separation you.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:So that was the controversy. But then you were talking about separation. One of the things fundamentalists emphasized was you have to be separate from things that undermine the fundamentals, and there were different degrees of separation. So some people would say, well, you can't be friends with a modernist. Other people would say, well, you can't be friends with a friend of a modernist, and other people would say you can't be friends with a friend of a friend of a modernist. So but the idea and I use the term friend loosely yes, you can be friends, but you couldn't fellowship as a brother in Christ if they denied the virgin birth, for instance.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:But some people, if you don't see prophecy the way I do, that's grounds to break fellowship, and so there's strong emphasis on separation and of course there's an element of that in, say, the way I dress. So some people would say the primary thing I need to think about as a Bible-believing Christian is I don't want to be like the world. Now, obviously there's some pitfalls apparent with that. What if a biblical way of expressing, let's say, a principle of modesty? What if that becomes popular in the modern culture? Then I have to go against it.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:So, looking back further to say the days of Phoebe Palmer, I found another emphasis that seemed to be the primary rationale, if you would, for a careful living. Not that they didn't believe in separation, but there was something that seemed to be somewhat deep and that was submission submission to god's will. So, in other words, it doesn't really matter what the world's doing, as long as I'm doing what god wants me to well, that seems to me to be a stronger motivation, right. But then if we go back even further than palmer, to the days of wes, I found, I think, perhaps an even deeper motivation or rationale for behavioral standards, and that is stewardship, and Wesley strongly emphasized whatever we do, ultimately we're accountable to God.
Zack Johnson:And again.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:If I am a good steward, that means I will be submissive to God's will, but I have this sense of accountability in every decision.
Zack Johnson:I make so.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Wesley goes to the door. One day there was a poor maid that had made a delivery, I suppose, and he looked and saw she had a very thin garment on and he said is this all you have? And yes, sir, it's all I have. And he reached in his pocket to give her some money and realized he had just spent it on a picture to decorate his apartment. And he said, oh, here is the blood of this poor creature is on my hands. I couldn't afford it. I should have saved the money and given it to her. And that was really his primary motivation for the strict standards that he enjoyed upon Methodist that moment in his life was.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, I know that attitude, and so he said don't ever let this word come out of your mouth I can afford this or that. Now he said your duty take care of your basic needs, your family's basic needs, and then, beyond that, you're to bless others, You're to be a steward to others, you are to take the things that God entrusts into your hands and to give those to help others. Well, along that line, when you move to the radical holiness networks, Along that line, when you move to the radical holiness networks exemplified by Martin Welsnapp, who started the school in Cincinnati called God's Bible School, he emphasized a radical stewardship as well, To the point that when he started his school, he deeded the property to God. Now, the court in Ohio had a hard time dealing with that after he died. How?
Zack Johnson:can God own property? It's a hard question.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:At least in Ohio that was a challenge, but the idea is that God is the proprietor over everything. I'm only a steward and to me that's something that I want to take personally and I like to share with young people.
Zack Johnson:It's the value of stewardship.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:The stewardship and that being a guiding principle in my life. Now, the uncanny thing for a lot of people is good stewardship for one person may work out very differently than good stewardship for someone else and in a world where we like to have everything cut and dried and you can do this and you can't do that, sometimes good stewardship will dictate that one person makes an investment that another person cannot make, or that they do something that another person cannot do and that actually has a certain appeal to rugged American individualism, and so we have to be careful because, on the other hand, it can become a slippery slope where we can say, well, my conscience isn't troubled about that.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:But if we live with this careful awareness that Wesley enjoined of remembering, we are accountable to the judge, I think it's a very deep motivation for careful biblical living. Wesley enjoined of remembering, we are accountable to the judge.
Zack Johnson:I think it's a very deep motivation for careful biblical living, I mean. And then how do you recommend people develop the stewardship that we see in Wesley? I pass around a list of questions that Wesley sort of asks himself on a regular basis, and I think I find that helpful to look at someone like Wesley and see, hey, what are they asking themselves and holding themselves against regularly? Are there any other ways that you've found to? I'll even use the word disciple, disciple to disciple people towards stewardship, including yourself.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, I think one of the ways that we can encourage this kind of stewardship mentality is is by developing some relationships, friendships similar to what Wesley developed and encouraged in the class meetings and band meetings, where some of those questions are not just dealt with privately but some of those questions are brought up. You know, there may be a blind spot in my life that I'm not being a good steward and don't even realize it, my life, that I'm not being a good steward and don't even realize it, and someone else a faithful brother or sister can say what about this? Now I think we have to be careful in those contexts that we don't try to impose our conscience on someone else. Right, our conscience on someone else. But I think even having the questions voiced at times can help us. Maybe there's something that's not a convenient question to deal with and our brother says yeah, but you need to think about it.
Zack Johnson:Yeah, one of the practices the church I attend used to put into place a little bit more regularly was asking the question what mars the image of Christ in me? Having somebody else answer that question towards you? It's actually a practice that a lot of people feel comfortable taking on, and it was made famous by the Moravians Right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:This idea of and, of course, wesley was deeply indebted to the Moravians. Right Wesley was deeply indebted to the Moravians. One of the questions that strikes me is, especially in our age of social media and impression management and basically every person becomes their own advertiser is do I try to make myself appear better than I really am?
Zack Johnson:That question is on the list of questions Right right.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:And I think sometimes if there's someone who has an intimate acquaintance with us, they may be more readily answer that question than we may. I remember both of these gentlemen are back in Holland's history. Both of them are deceased and I don't think there's any way that anyone would identify them because of that fact. But I was interviewing one gentleman about another historic figure whom he had known and I asked him about his leadership, his stewardship, whatever, or his perspective on this person and he said well, he said this gentleman had a higher opinion of his spirituality than anyone else did Right, of his spirituality than anyone else did Right, and that man seemed like the kind of person that could have benefited from someone asking or dealing with this question. Am I putting out a perception or, in his case, has he deluded himself until he feels like that he is much better a person than other people perceive him to be Right?
Zack Johnson:Yeah, I actually think that frequent questioning of our own lives with people we trust is one of the heartbeats of how to stay strong in the faith. Yes, and I think that's kind of what the church is designed for. And we, we we think a lot about that at our college on how do we get our students to develop a habit on a at least a weekly basis to have somebody checking in on you and then, over time, developing a framework for how to actually structure that time, because if not, you can unintentionally drift away. But speaking about stewardship, I know you're actually giving a talk here at Sadler in about 15 minutes and so I know whoever's listening can watch that talk as well. Are there any other things you'd like to share in more of a casual environment, about some of your passions, your burdens, the resources you love to consume, anything along those lines?
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, I do love to read, I'm sure it doesn't surprise me.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:And so one of my hobbies is visiting bookstores and especially looking for holiness books. What's interesting is a lot of those are little pamphlets, little booklets, and some of them are jewels. I'll give an example of one that I particularly am fond of collecting. He was and is considered eccentric. His name was WB Godbey was and is considered eccentric. His name was WB Godby, and one of my particular interests is he's from Pulaski County, kentucky, where I guess that's as close to home place as I have. That's where my parents live.
Zack Johnson:In Kentucky.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Yes in Kentucky South Central Kentucky and Godby was a prolific writer.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:He wrote a set of commentaries on the New Testament, did a translation of the New Testament which may seem a little counterintuitive to those that are familiar with elements of the conservative Arlenist movement that would emphasize use of the King James Bible.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, he used the Greek, from Tischendorf, as he would say, and he thought it was chronologically significant that Tischendorf discovered what he would call the Sinaitic Manuscript the year that he experienced the entire sanctification education uh, but uh, a bit of eccentric, as I said, he he was known to uh have uh unique habits. Uh, he basically would put his wardrobe on when he would start out on a trip and uh, one of his peregrinations, as he would call it, he, he traveled around and basically when the outer layer got sold he would just remove that and move on. But he was very talented linguistically, somewhat creative, and created his own words when he didn't know a good English word that would suffice and was very instrumental in keeping large swaths of the Holiness movement from embracing Pentecostalism. So I love to look for Godly things Is there a particular pamphlet.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, he wrote over 200.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:So for the audience, if they're going to Google one, Well, if you can find it actually, I saw one not too long ago available for about $20, which I was really surprised. But his very first one was on baptism Okay, mode and design. So if somebody If it's still available, they could find a little treasure there. But he wrote a lot about prophecy and he had some unique views, but basically he was a premillennialist, got it, prophecy, and he had some unique views, but basically he was a premillennialist, got it and uh, so, uh, if you're wanting something really creative though infantile justification, okay, uh is another one that he did. But uh, they said when he died, uh, in cincinnati, ohio, the room where he died, which was a college dormitory room, that it was about two weeks after they removed his body before people could enter the room. It was so saturated with the presence of God.
Zack Johnson:Really. Yeah, I didn't know if it was going to be disorganized in the presence of God, I mean he's really an amazing figure.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:their presence of God, I mean. He's really an amazing figure. He was at a train stop once in mid-Missouri and some people met him. There had no idea who he was at first. They described how disheveled he looked and he had a bunch of booklets bundled together with twine hanging over his shoulder and they said something like this when they found out who it was, they said one wonders if Jesus returned to the earth, if anyone would recognize him.
Zack Johnson:Well, yeah, thanks, sir, I'll actually look him up there. And then in the last five minutes you actually were able to share at the Sadler Tea Time today. We share pearls, right, and I always like to ask this in a podcast Are there any pearls of wisdom that you really like to have reflected on and like to leave with people? I don't know if you'll reshare the one that you shared this morning or have any other ones up your sleeve.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:Well, I think I could briefly share at least one of them, and what I was talking about was evaluating language and symbolism that's been used in history, but also how that relates to study of God's word, studying the Bible, and the danger that I mentioned as my first pearl. I guess you could say they were cautionary notes, but sometimes wisdom does come out as a negative, as a caution, and that was the danger of eisegesis. And I heard a story I believe the figure was Eudora Welty, a famous American writer that there was a conference of literary criticism of her work and there was a brilliant young scholar who waxed his eloquence and was showing his erudition and focused on a single light bulb in a stark room as a symbolism of the loneliness of modernity, of modern life. And all of a sudden, as he made this brilliant point, a little elderly woman jumped up in the back of the room and said that's brilliant, I never thought of that and it would have been great praise, except it was the author, it was Eudora Welty, and he read into her work what she never intended.
Wallace Thornton, Jr.:And yeah, she said I never thought of that. And I'm afraid sometimes that people read scripture or read history and they find things that the author never intended. And so I want to be careful as a historian, as a Christian, to be faithful to authorial intent. Mine as a historian, as my friend Bill would say, is not necessarily to agree with the sources, but it's to understand them Right and then hopefully faithfully share that understanding with others.
Zack Johnson:Right, yeah, that's really good. I preached a few sermons over the last few years and somebody came up to me and said your job is to put a microphone to the scripture and try to tune out all the noise, but it's very. That's actually a daunting challenge to read the scriptures and then to speak about them without adding on something beyond the intent. Well, out of just a caution to get you to your next affair here, I just want to say thank you so much for joining me and if anybody listening is interested in sort of a rigorous academic experience with discipleship in Boston, one of the most historic cities in the US, I might add, Sadler College is a great place to consider Anything else you want to add. I thank you for the privilege. Yeah, absolutely, it's been an honor and we'll get you to your talk and thank you for joining me. Thank you.