The Sattler College Podcast

Navigating the World of Christian Denominations

• Sattler College • Episode 17

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In this episode, Joshua Lindsey, creator of the YouTube channel Ready to Harvest, shares his journey from Bible college to becoming a prominent voice in the study of Christian denominations. Joshua explains how he maintains a neutral point of view when covering various denominations and dives into the research process behind his in-depth videos. He also discusses the ethics of creating Christian content on YouTube, the challenges of balancing faith and fact, and offers advice for navigating the diverse world of Christian denominations.

Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler.

Mentioned in this episode:

Timestamps:
0:00 – Introduction and Welcome 
0:19 – Joshua’s Background and Educational Journey 
3:40 – Creating Neutral Content on Christian Denominations 
10:05 – Researching Christian Denominations for YouTube 
18:30 – Ethics of Creating Christian Content on YouTube 
25:20 – Popular Videos and Viewer Feedback 
33:00 – Navigating Denominations and Church Splits 
40:15 – Advice for Christians in Divided Denominations 
47:30 – Closing Thoughts and Origami Fun Fact

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Zack Johnson:

All right, it is October 9th and I'm here with Joshua Lindsay from North Dakota or Minnesota.

Joshua Lindsey:

Yeah, both. I mean I go to work in North Dakota but live in Minnesota, so I'm bored of there.

Zack Johnson:

Great Well, joshua, I love I usually just read a bio, but I couldn't find like a succinct bio and yours online, so I'm just going to let you give us your like a five minute bio and yours online, sure, so I'm just gonna let you give us your like a five minute who you are, where you come from, some of your passions, just so people know who you are.

Joshua Lindsey:

I mean, I should probably do that at some point is do a better buy one of the one of the reasons why you might not have even found that is because my channel ready to harvest, which I'll talk about, is from neutral point of view, so I try not to generally have my own stuff, to talk too much about myself, because I'm just the person who's providing the information, but to give a little bit more information about who I am.

Joshua Lindsey:

I was born in Washington State We'll go all the way back there and I've actually been around quite a bit, mostly in the Midwest, since then.

Joshua Lindsey:

But I came in 2011 to Fargo, north Dakota, to go to Bible college and then, after going to Bible college there, in 2015, I actually came on staff at Masters Baptist College in Fargo, north Dakota and I teach some classes there. I am also the station manager of Christian radio station there, having 88.7 radio, and then also do IT work for the church and for the college, and one of the things I was asked to do is to teach a one-week class on Christian denominations, and so in doing that, I decided to make some videos, and that's really what set things off. I put them online and that led to where I am today making videos about Christian denominations on YouTube as really one of the primary things that I do and when I think about what people think of me. Obviously, the people that I'm closest to think of me as the guy that's at church, but most of the world knows me from YouTube and Christian denominations.

Zack Johnson:

Okay, and you mentioned Ready to Harvest. Can you just tell me a little bit about Ready to Harvest and what that is? I know there's a website. There's also a YouTube channel. Can you just tell me a little bit about that?

Joshua Lindsey:

Yeah, primarily a YouTube channel. I did make a website where if people want to support the channel they can go there and watch the videos without ads. And also my videos are. I do make transcripts, so all my videos are scripted. I make transcripts with footnotes and stuff and I put that on the website. But where almost everybody is running into me is on YouTube and there I make YouTube videos on Christian denominations.

Joshua Lindsey:

Some of my videos are just on one Christian denomination. That's kind of one of the big things that I enjoy working on is studying a particular denomination like the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod or Anglican Church in North America, and doing it from a neutral point of view. So my goal is, when all is said and done, if somebody watches the video from that denomination, they'll say that that video represents them fairly and that they like it and could even recommend it. In fact, for one denomination I remember a pastor saying like oh, this is a really good overview of our denomination. I'm going to use this video when I bring on new staff to show them what we're about, and so that's my idea, for everything is to do it neutrally, about every other week that I make a video on one denomination and then the other video on the alternating week will be anything else. So, maybe comparing two denominations, I've made some videos that are like quiz videos on denominations or talking about something happening in real time.

Joshua Lindsey:

So I made several videos over the last few years when the United Methodist Church was splitting in two. Well, the UNC and a lot of groups were leaving and many of them ended up going into the Global Methodist Church, so I covered that issue primarily. So there's some aspect of denomination news that I'll cover every once in a while, but it's an endless stream of material. There's just a lot to talk about and, honestly, not at least at the level of granularity that I go into. There's not really anybody else who's doing the same thing. There's people who make videos just on you know what do Lutherans believe? But to go into, okay, what's the difference between the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod and North American Lutheran Church and that kind of thing. Most people aren't going to that level of detail. So I feel like it's providing something that really just hasn't existed.

Joshua Lindsey:

I always thought when I make videos like my core audience is probably ministers or people who are involved in some way, you know, actually running into multiple denominations. I don't know that that's actually the reality, like a lot of people just seem to be people who just find this topic interesting and maybe they've attended a couple different churches in their life. But I do think, like if I was somebody who was trying to minister in the city and my city had 10 other churches, where would I go to try to be like, okay, so what else is around here? What do they believe? And I thought like I'm going to try to be that resource where they can find out about all the churches in the area, and so far it seems to be working.

Joshua Lindsey:

The biggest complaint anybody would have is that it can only go so fast, right? You know, uh, there's been people been asking can you make a video on this group? For, you know, three, four years, and in this I'm making videos every week, but I can only do so much. But, uh, that's good, I have a lot of opportunity in the future to continue to do the same thing and then so, how do you do your research?

Zack Johnson:

yeah, for your videos is it primarily, primarily, internet-based. Do you do any live interviews in the churches?

Joshua Lindsey:

It is primarily internet-based. I am almost always looking for entirely primary sources. I don't use the handbook of Christian denominations and things like that that exist, because also denominations can change sometimes pretty quickly. That kind of stuff can get out of date. So first place I'll go is see do they have a statement of faith or do they have confessions that they hold to, and I'll read through all of those and I have a certain set of things that I'm looking to find out what they believe about. In my research I'll often discover some other areas that I don't look into. For every denomination there's some things that really make them stand out. But then if I find, after reading the Statement of Faith, like there's nothing. I can't find out what they believe about tithing or divorce and remarriage, then I'll start digging further.

Joshua Lindsey:

Sometimes I've had to purchase e-books, or actual physical books in some cases, and wait for those to arrive in the mail and read through those. I never used to like ebooks. I used to always read everything on physical books. But I have come around, you know, like an ebook you can, you know, copy and paste things if they're good and it's a big look, both stuff uh, I'm a huge fan of ebooks, yeah yeah, it's.

Joshua Lindsey:

It took me a little while but I've come around. So I do. I do ebooks, but some denominations actually have put out apps and, like you, subscribe to the app. So I did that recently where I had to pay for like a monthly subscription to the app and was able to get information and research there. Uh, I've often ended up reading through, or at least skimming through, the tables of contents of like several years or decades worth of a denominations magazine to see like, okay, if they don't have it in their statement of faith, maybe somebody brought it up in their magazine. So I'll read through all of those.

Joshua Lindsey:

Some denominations have like lists of resolutions that they've had at conferences over the years, and so I'll read through the list of resolutions Whenever I can. I'll do targeted Google searches on their website. If I still can't find it, I'll look up local church congregations within the denomination and find a whole list of those and then do a targeted Google search for certain words on all of their websites to see if they've ever discussed the issue. So it can be kind of complex, but it's kind of fun too. It's like something.

Zack Johnson:

And do you do? When you shop a video or you ship out a video, do you do all the editing and everything.

Joshua Lindsey:

It is a one man thing. Nobody else touches my videos at all before I release them. So it is a process. I start by studying them and often I'll do the research. I'll make the video, I'll get the script done, and then I won't touch that for a month. I'll research another generation and then I'll have that script done, and then I won't touch that for a while. And then, once I've made several that way, then I'll go back and start making graphics for the video. So I have the script, I'll make the graph, and while I'm making the graphics sometimes I'll be like, oh, I need to fix this. One of the things that's interesting is because I do that. I, I make the video. A lot of research really. When I'm making the graphics I'm reading the whole video again. So, like I, I'm like putting in my own mind to remember it. Then I record the video, I'm the video. So that's the third time getting all the information.

Zack Johnson:

I know.

Joshua Lindsey:

I don't like scrolling text, like most traditional teleprompter ideas are, but I do have a screen that is next to my camera, and then it's actually like a Word doc set to a read mode, and I just tap on the keyboard and it'll advance one page like a small page of text. So then, after that though, after making the graphics and then recording finally is the editing. Well, not even finally the editing the whole video has to be edited. So I hear it again, and then, when it's done, I always and this is a recommendation for anybody who makes content online when you're done editing, always watch the video again.

Joshua Lindsey:

Like watch it before things will be messed up, there'll be problems, there'll be a blank screen for a while, and sometimes this stuff even makes it through after I've watched it. But I've always, always, watched the video, so I end up like, however long the video is like, I've seen it five times by the time it's out there, on top of all the research it took to make it.

Zack Johnson:

So, yeah, that that does take a lot of time to do all that and and where are you going to get at that? Sometimes you change what you said throughout that process. By the end you catch something.

Joshua Lindsey:

I think there's been a few times. You know, you get to the point where you know I've already made the video, I've uploaded it, I've scheduled it, but I haven't released it yet. And then, you know, I just encounter something and I realize, oh, I didn't say that right, or like oh, I should have mentioned this instead. I had a video I made on Christian denominations that observed Seventh-day Sabbath and I had a comparison video with seven denominations.

Joshua Lindsey:

And then I made another video and it was another group that did it. The whole video is never intending to be comprehensive, of every group that does, but I was like, boy, I should really put this other group in there too, right? So I just, you know, redesigned the whole thing and added another group in there. That took a lot of time I can't do that frequently because it takes so much time to redo something but I thought, you know, I really ought to do that, but at least at the graphics making stage of things, that's where I opted and say, oh, I need to adjust this a little bit. So there is some editing after the fact, that goes into everything Got it.

Zack Johnson:

And then I'm just going to ask some trivia. What are some of your most popular videos that you've made, sure?

Joshua Lindsey:

My most popular video, I think right now is called Eastern Christianity versus Western Christianity, which is something I thought I remember searching on YouTube. I was like people talk about this a lot, is there a video like this? And I don't think there was another video by that title at the time, and there's always been people, especially people who are Catholic versus Orthodox. That's always been something that people are interested in. So Eastern Christianity versus Western Christianity takes at least that but also adds to it the question of Protestantism and then a few other interesting things like Eastern protestants and western orthodox and such, and describes that whole issue. Uh, maybe, obviously the thumbnail and the title is a big thing to any video becoming especially popular, but it also has to be a topic that has broad appeal.

Joshua Lindsey:

Um, like somebody might say well, if you become a really good youtuber, you can make any video go viral, and you can, as long as you're willing to only make the content that you know will go viral.

Joshua Lindsey:

But I don't want to do that. So, like, if I make the video, um, you know I have one that will be coming out eventually on, you know, christ sanctified holy church, and my video is what is christ sanctified holy church. That video is not going to go viral. You know most people don't know, they don't care, you know, and that I'm okay with that. Like I'm learning study, I'm learning to learn it for myself give information on a group that really nobody's talking about, but every once in a while, because I've learned about these very precise things about Christian denominations, now I can make a really good informational, broader topic video on something that maybe a lot of people will click through and I can give a lot of that information I've learned from these little groups and make those videos interesting, which makes people watch longer, if people watch longer than YouTube continues to recommend it, because it doesn't matter.

Joshua Lindsey:

Ultimately, if you click on a video, if you click away, youtube will stop recommending. If people aren't watching it Like cause. Then they say oh, you know, you could put whatever title and thumbnail on the video, it could just be junk and and YouTube doesn't want its viewers to to go away that fast. So only if people watch the video a significant time will youtube continue to recommend it and uh, so yeah, that that one video on eastern christianity versus western is is the top one.

Joshua Lindsey:

One of my videos on the united methodist split um, you know, is also maybe number two up there. I had a video that's lutherans baptists. It's comparing lutherans baptists, methodists. I forget exactly all. There's like maybe number two up there. I had a video that's Lutherans Baptists. It's comparing Lutherans Baptists, methodists. I forget exactly. There's like four groups and just a straight up comparison of four, which is pretty unusual. Again, there's not a lot like that on YouTube and that one did really well for a while.

Joshua Lindsey:

One of the first videos that actually took off on my channel and was for a period of time probably a year, was like, and was for a period of time probably a year was just driving my channel. I made a video called Episcopal versus Anglican, which makes people think because they're like well, episcopalians are Anglicans, right. So that video and it was actually a cut from a longer video on a different topic and that one did really well for a while. So it's somewhat predictable. I often will tell my wife I'm like this video is going to do well. This video, I said like it's going to be, it's not going to do super well, but that's okay. I know what I'm going for and most of the time I'm correct on that. I can tell which videos will do better and and I'm fine with making ones that don't do better, because my goal is more than just getting as many clicks as possible. It's, you know, getting the information out there about the big groups, but also the small ones.

Zack Johnson:

Right, and then the average length of your videos are like give or take an hour.

Joshua Lindsey:

I mean sure, I try to avoid an hour at this point, so I think most of them are probably going to be between 15 minutes to 35 minutes or something like that minutes to to 35 minutes or something like that. Um, I made a video a while back on the uh salvation army and that video was over an hour long and I just remember like recording it and it's like, oh, this is such a slog like with my stuff that there's so many graphics to make. Um, and just sitting down and recording for an hour long is not a lot of fun either, especially when you're just reading off a script and I was like I need to stop this and there's no, no one's going to want to watch this. And just sitting down and recording for an hour long is not a lot of fun either, especially when you're just reading off a script and I was like I need to stop this and he goes nope, no one's going to want to watch this video, it's just too long. And so I kind of committed at that point all right, I'm going to start, as opposed to always just reading off full quotes, I'm going to try to put the quote on the screen and highlight parts and stuff.

Joshua Lindsey:

So I Try to cut things back, but some videos. You know, if I have a topic that's really very in-depth and you know if it takes an hour to do it, I'll do it in an hour. But I do try to avoid being too long and I have some videos that are pretty quick too. I had a series on Christian denominations in two minutes. I believe there's 60 videos in that series. I released them three at a time and so those are just two minutes for each video, got it and then.

Zack Johnson:

So you mentioned something earlier on about presenting things from a neutral point of view. Can you talk a little bit more about what that means to you, and is that a vision you had originally?

Joshua Lindsey:

Is it something you kind of decided when you kind of more along the way asked to teach a class on Christian denominations, I knew at least the starting point needs to be neutral to some extent, like at least fair. I need to talk about denominations and say here's what they actually believe. And you know, when I'm making that video, I'm researching it. What am I looking for? I'm looking for neutral information. So it's like you know, there is a value in neutrality to be able to find something you can trust. And then, even if later on I want to build on it and say, now here's where these groups need to be corrected, or something like that, I have to start by something I can trust that this is what they actually say. And so when I made those videos, I looked at the source and looked at what those denominations themselves said. But then I realized and I actually realized before this that there's just not that much on YouTube about Christian denominations, and certainly not from a neutral perspective.

Joshua Lindsey:

A couple years ago I made a video called Neutral Point of View is Wrong, which is a catchy title, and that one did do well. And what I say in that video is that neutral point of view can only answer certain questions. Neutral point of view can only answer certain questions, like, if you're talking about a war and two sides are fighting over it, you can describe why they're fighting, but you can't describe who's right, because then you're no longer neutral, you've now taken a side. So the important, maybe the most important question who is right is actually left out of neutral point of view. So, in that sense, if you're leaving off that, then you could say, in some sense, neutral point of view is wrong. Now, ultimately, I would say at the end of the video is you know, I choose to make this channel from neutral point of view anyway, but I recognize that no person should be neutral Like in your life.

Joshua Lindsey:

You do have to make conclusions on these things, but there's a value in us being able to come together and agree on the parameters of the debate before we start. You know, if we're going to argue about entire sanctification, for example, I should be able to explain it and you should be able to explain it. We should be able to agree what it is. And then we can say all right, now, here's what I think is wrong or here's what I think is right. And too many times people are trying to say you know, you believe this, and the other person says no, no, no, I don't believe that. And then you spend the whole time arguing trying to tell them what they believe it's like. Well, let's start by okay what do you believe? All right, I think we've got that cleared.

Joshua Lindsey:

Now we can argue why I think it's right or wrong, instead of just continuing being wrapped around that question of of what they actually believe and so some of the alternative perspectives you could would it be like a persuasive point of view is sure that would be the sort of an alternative way to make a video yeah, absolutely, and the the existence and the fact that I make my channel from neutral point of view is no slam on anybody doing anything differently, or even saying that I won't necessarily at some point in the future make a channel, that it's far more traditional to just make a channel that you know you're yourself and and really, by being neutral point of view, I'm not myself on my channel in that way right, I most people don't know very much about me and that considered that's fine.

Joshua Lindsey:

Uh, because the my channel is not really in any way about me and I've only said in maybe two or three of my videos I've even given my name, joshua. I don't even for YouTube channels they always say you know, you want people to get to know you, you know, introduce yourself at every video and things like that. And I could do that and still obviously be neutral. But my thought is like I'm just, I, just I'm the narrator. In fact I've had people comment before and I, you know I don't know if they use the word narrator or something like that, but you know, you can tell like I'm just working for a rate of harvest and just the guy that reads stuff off or whatever. But yeah, I do make, I do the whole thing. But it's not really about me, it's about the, the content that I'm making, it about the groups that I'm discussing.

Zack Johnson:

Great, and then I know what was the title of the talk you gave to yeah, so we were talking about that.

Joshua Lindsey:

Content creation can be a good thing. Yeah, the idea of being on YouTube and using it in the right way.

Zack Johnson:

And what were some of the points you were trying to make in the talks for the people who don't get a chance to listen?

Joshua Lindsey:

trying to make in the talks for the people who don't get a chance to listen. Um well, there's so much on youtube that, uh, what I see a lot for christian content creators on youtube is they end up getting caught up in the whole like trying to get the most clicks and things like that, and what that ends up doing is, uh, you're not really the person making the content. At that point you're letting whatever is clickable, whatever the audience wants or whatever will make them click, even if they want it or not. You know, whatever will get them stirred up be the thing that drives your channel. And so, for me, I've said you know, I'm just going to make things that I think are important and some of them will do well and some of them won't. So that's one of the dangers. Of course, there's another thing. If a person decides to make content on YouTube, is you have to watch out about the pride factor? People can get proud. I mean, that's not really a danger. If your channel gets big, a lot of people kind of wish they could have the opportunity to do that, because a lot of people think, oh, I can't be that hard and honestly, I'm sure there's a lot. You could call it luck or whatever. There's a lot of things that went into my channel that I wasn't entirely in control of. There's the algorithm, you know, and all those things. But if a person does happen to do well, then it's like just because you have a lot of people listening to you doesn't mean you're any worth hearing. It doesn't mean your opinion is any more valuable than anybody else's. So you have to watch out for those kinds of things.

Joshua Lindsey:

It's easy I actually for a good while when I got started. It's so easy to just be caught up in statistics. Like I'm a statistically minded guy. I have some videos on my channel about it and I could just be obsessing about, like you know, okay, how did I do today compared to last? And YouTube makes that way too easy. There's like all this complex stuff and here's all the videos you released in the past year and here's how they compare.

Joshua Lindsey:

Here's what they did in the first 24 hours, you know, in the past year, and here's how they compared. Here's what they did in the first 24 hours, you know. Uh, here's the click-through rates. Here's the average view duration. You can get really just buried in that. I've I've finally learned to kind of move past that somewhat and I can just not look at any of those analytics for for weeks and I'll be fine, um, but that person can just kind of let that control them. One thing that I think is a pitfall and I talked about uh, but that doesn't have to be and I've I've avoided it. People talk a lot about burnout on youtube, about you know you, just you finish making a video and then the very next thing is I must make another one like I mean, everybody's expecting it.

Joshua Lindsey:

I've got to keep, especially if you have a schedule set for yourself like there's no rest. And for me, I work ahead of time, so I make a video and I schedule it to release at some point in the future and I work until I have a big backlog. So I actually have a couple months of content. That's already. And if I if I get.

Joshua Lindsey:

I mean this is happy, like if I get sick and I'm laying in bed like I'm not both sick and also stressing about like, oh, I gotta like do it all pulling all night or on saturday night or something, to get a video ready.

Joshua Lindsey:

I think that's terrible for for like, mental health to do that and, um, this is probably one of the reasons that people burn out. Uh, you know, I I enjoy going home, being with the family, going on the bike ride with my kids, and I just I never let, I've, I've, I've found a good way to have those separate domains of things. Like, when I'm with my kids, I'm not thinking about my YouTube channel. Um, when I'm doing my other, my other work that I do and not thinking about my YouTube channel, you know, I have those times and then when I do one and leave that, I switch onto the other thing and I can work on that, and that's a luxury only afforded by the fact that I actually have prepared ahead of time, and so it's not like, well, this has to be done tomorrow or it's all over. So I do think it's good to make sure that you're not always focused on on content creation or something like that right and did you?

Zack Johnson:

I? Do you have any advice on YouTube consumption versus creation, on like see guiding principles for people to think about where they're consuming their media? Because I think it's a really common thing that I hear among people my true people in school is they go onto YouTube to do something at night, let's just say for a homework assignment. It's two hours later. They've literally just burned two hours, whatever the algorithm coming from them. Do you have any guiding principles on how to use YouTube in a I said maybe a healthy way, avoiding maybe some of the stuff on there that probably isn't worth people's time? Yeah, you have to be one of the stuff on there that probably isn't worth people's time yeah, you have to be.

Joshua Lindsey:

One of the things to be mindful of is realize what these media platforms, what their motivations, right, and uh. People have mentioned like well, you know, if you go to the youtube search and say you just type christian denominations, like the first three results will be relevant and then after that it's like it's just looking at your home it's a bunch of suggested content and things like that. Why would you do that when they know you're looking for for content on Christian denominations? And the reason is, the motivation behind YouTube is not necessarily to provide what you're looking for. If providing what you're looking for makes you stay long on YouTube, then they'll provide what you're looking for. But their motivation is keep you on the site as long as possible. And so they've found and the testimony of the people who end up spending two hours on there if they just found what they were looking for, they'd be through there and out in 15, 20 minutes, right. But YouTube knows, if they recommend all this other stuff, that you'll stay longer and that's their goal. Longer staying on the site is more ad revenue and so forth. It's all their goals. So if you're aware of that, then you can think of ways to counter that, and especially now with things like YouTube Shorts, it's a really easy way to burn up time.

Joshua Lindsey:

People are flipping through these quick, fast videos With those. I think you see one. You think, oh, that was funny, that was interesting. If you, let's say, you spent one minute on a short, which is really the longest they can be, and you did that for an hour, that means you watch 60 pieces of content. I would bet, though, if you talk to a person after they finished that hour and you said, okay, tell me how many of those you can remember, like how many of them can you actually call out? They would find, like even the one they watched three minutes ago that was funny and interesting. They can't remember it because it's not something that's lasting.

Joshua Lindsey:

It's just that very fast, short-term waste of time and I think that's what we have to ultimately decide is like what kind of things are a waste of time, and what will I consciously decide not to do, or at least find some way to limit it? I mean, at the extreme, you can get, uh, web browser extensions and things that will give you time limits. You know, after 30 minutes on YouTube, it cuts you off, and that's all the YouTube for today, even if they're easy to bypass. Often that's good enough Like it cuts it, like you know you could do it, but you set this up and so you know you can get around it if you want to. But you say, oh, that's good, that's a reminder, I'm going to stop this. But if a person can be even more mindful, then they should have a goal going into social media. Why am I going in here instead of this thing?

Joshua Lindsey:

where it's just like click on the icon and just what is it going to feed me today?

Zack Johnson:

Well, it's become sort of like turning on the TV. I mean not to speak poorly about people with TVs in there, but it's like I'm going to turn this off just to burn time.

Joshua Lindsey:

YouTube has been in the past, to some extent, a way to be different than that, in that you're the person choosing what you're watching, as opposed to the TV, where it's like whatever's on, I'll just watch. But that is what has changed with things like Shorts and TikTok. They directly feed you something that you never asked for at all, and then you can decide to flip away, but then you just get presented with something else that you never asked for. So I do think that there's a definite parallel there, and obviously it's not all that surprising that.

Joshua Lindsey:

YouTube is actually in the TV business now too as well. Yeah, there can be some similarities there, I think. I mean, obviously, television was the time waster of the last half century at least, and now in the last 20 years, you know, the Internet has kind of come to replace it or just add on to it as another time waster. Certainly, there's a lot of value that can be provided by the Internet, but, as any powerful tool is, it's going to be used by people with all different motivations.

Zack Johnson:

Right, and then this is just like a a quick question. You don't have to have the right answer sometimes when we do.

Zack Johnson:

We're a christian college and we have we have to do marketing because we're looking for people, sure do you? Do you feel like there's any? Are there any ethical concerns about using a platform like YouTube that has a ton of other questionable content out there to mix in your content into that algorithm? Um, is there anything, are there any ethical concerns that we should be thinking about? It's just like even any businesses trying to use the platform, yeah, for probably good motivations, and or are there any like helpful principles that you've thought about to sort of work your way around that?

Joshua Lindsey:

yeah, you think about, like um, there's people who, to kind of use an analogy, there's people who say, um, well, we, we shouldn't use palm oil, and so then they use a different kind of oil. And then somebody says, well, you know that oil is actually doing this and and you, you can essentially find an ethical problem anywhere if you look hard enough. So the question is is balancing, like, how far are you willing to go? I mean obviously just the most base level. If you're say, if you're actually paying for advertisement on YouTube, then you're putting money in the pockets of YouTube and the pockets of Google, and I'm sure we can find things that those companies have donated to that we disagree with. So the question is can you use their services?

Joshua Lindsey:

But, of course, by even watching the videos, you're supporting that ad revenue stream, and so you know at the end ultimately you could try to make, and some people would make the argument you can just go all the way and ultimately say you have to stay off the internet altogether.

Joshua Lindsey:

Obviously I've not come to that conclusion, but so, if you don't take everything to its extreme, you do have the question okay, is my ad going to be placed in front of things? There are ways you can limit ad placement on YouTube, Like there you can block certain channels, like my ads will not play there, but let's say, not advertising. Just, you know, posting as a channel and maybe their ads, but they're not playing in front of something else. Well, you know, would you be willing to put up a billboard, you know, in your, in your local town and and you guess what you know, it might be on the other side of the billboard, you know, and what are the other billboards yeah, youtube is, I still in a lot of ways, kind of a public forum where everybody is talking and um.

Joshua Lindsey:

By choosing not to talk there, you're not lessening anybody else's voice, generally lowering your own um. By talking, you're not approving anybody else's voice either. You're simply making your own bird. So I do think there's an argument to be said, um that there's a value in speaking on platforms, even where people have all kinds of things that they say uh. I think there can also be the case to be made where you know there are probably platforms that'd be better for us to stay away from, just like there are places we'd stay away from, and also, if alternatives come along in the future that we say these are better, then maybe it's time to be willing to jump ship and not get so committed to one group.

Zack Johnson:

Well, I just wanted to affirm that I'm in the camp, that it's an. There's an opportunity here to leverage the platform and I've heard so many people that I bump into consume sort of just sermons from, yeah, sermons on youtube, which is a huge, yeah, huge tool to be able to be feeding ourselves really. But there.

Joshua Lindsey:

There's a massive number there. There's so many churches today that stream all their content onto YouTube, and so I, and then even your videos.

Zack Johnson:

I've learned a lot from them, and so I just wanted to thank you for a lot of the work you put in there. Praise the Lord, and one of the things that the other questions I was going to get at is you know this is changing topics a little bit sure. Do you know how many denominations give or take in christianity exists today?

Joshua Lindsey:

yeah, so I have a video on my channel called I think it's called are there really 45 000 christians? Because there was a, uh, the world christian encyclopedia published that number a while back and and that number, which at this point it's been something that grows each year. So you know there's people have said 35 000, 45 000, 65 000, etc, etc. But, um, that number came from taking essentially and every, every, every denominational group, and if they're in multiple countries, then each country is also considered a separate denomination and so I think that number is is a bit inflated. Ultimately, there does become the question of what is a denomination, because there's a lot of churches that kind of are one off, they're just like one church are they their own?

Joshua Lindsey:

denominations. Yeah, exactly like is each. You know, each separate movement, a denomination um and even if there are a lot you know, when does it really start to matter?

Joshua Lindsey:

Like you know, the denomination of two churches over there, okay, but like, should we really count that as another option in the whole denominational sphere? So if you look at the 2020 US Religion Census, they basically had anything I would consider notable for united states denominations and, as I recall their spreadsheet that gives like the count of congregations and adherence is maybe 400 or so. That would be like notable in the us. There are some other groups that are smaller than that. Um, but if you're just going to count everybody and count every place across the world and stuff, it's an uncountable number for sure. I mean, like it's, it's it, it exists, the number exists and god knows what it is, but, uh, there's not some central place where they're all reporting to that.

Zack Johnson:

We could get it and I guess my follow-up question should we that there's, that you're not. This is a hard question. Should we be burdened by the growing number of denominations, or is this something that some of us should be thinking about? Hey, how do we? How do we prevent this growing number? Or is it okay? Okay and natural?

Joshua Lindsey:

that's sort of the context of christianity each each group has a different take on that idea, because in some Christian denominations the very idea of schism, or separating, breaking apart, is viewed extremely negative. In others it's almost a regular occurrence. So if you look at, for example, presbyterians, hardly a year goes by without another Presbyterian denomination forming. A year goes by without another Presbyterian denomination forming. And so if your denomination was formed by splitting off, there's inherently some acceptance that there can be a right time for that. Like you know, if the group that you're a part of went liberal and you are still conservative and you don't want to fellowship with them, then you break away and that's what they've decided to do. You break away and that's what they've decided to do. So, uh, I don't know if I can neutrally answer that question, uh, but certainly some groups would say like, no, like you're always. If, uh, if a group views themselves as requiring a necessity of apostolic succession, then if you don't at least take a bishop with you, then there's a serious problem, right in their view. But there is the question I think that often comes up in those discussions is well, isn't it somewhat problematic when you look at Christianity and nobody can agree on everything you know? Is there a problem. Is there something wrong with Christianity that the Christians can't get along?

Joshua Lindsey:

More recently, I've seen some kind of apologetic in the opposite direction, where people say well, actually, the abundance of Christian denominations is a good thing. It means people at least care about theology, as opposed to just like let's all just be together and in the same church when we all disagree on certain issues. I think, ultimately, what it points to is people can justify their beliefs regardless. You can find a way to make the bible say what you want in one way or the other, um, and of course, everybody's gonna have to do their own research to see which people are doing doing so rightfully and which people are trying to twist the scriptures to match what they say.

Joshua Lindsey:

Um, but I don't think that the christian denominations, the massive christian denominations, disproves christianity. I think it's actually consistent with christianity and that christianity doesn't claim people are perfect. They're going to follow the truth. In fact, just at the time that christ was around and his apostles in the new testament, you already hear about people who are, you know, leaving the right path and teaching their own doctrines and then. So it was immediately recognized that there was going to be false prophets, false christ and such. So the abundance of christian denominations is something that you could almost say was inevitable, um, and it shouldn't be used, I don't think, ultimately, by itself, as some kind of disproof of the truth of the christian message, right, I think I think it's a.

Zack Johnson:

It's an interesting question because sort of in my mid 20s is when I started thinking it was important to pay attention to differences across churches because I think you said it way early on eventually we're gonna have to make decisions for ourselves about what we believe and, and with like church splits going on about key issues, it's hard for me to know what. What advice to give, always about, even when people are in a, in a congregation that's going through some sort of disagreement. Do you stay, do you go? Is the growing number of denominations okay? Do you have any advice to give to people in sort of wrestling with? If they haven't, aren't a member of a denomination, don't feel at home, are a little bit nomadic? How do they go about making decisions If a church is going through a hard time? What's sort of the guiding principles on when to rally behind the schism versus not? It is a hard group of questions.

Joshua Lindsey:

Yes, but they are some of the more difficult questions. In the field of denomination. I'll try to do my best to remember some of the things that you've said there. But I mean, there's quite a bit of a difference between, like, a local congregation splitting and a whole denomination splitting. Let's take the congregational aspect of things. I think there's, depending on the polity of a denomination, these things may be viewed differently. But within a congregation that's dividing, I think most people recognize, at least they would say, that the church is the people right.

Joshua Lindsey:

And so ultimately, if this church has been founded on a certain set of principles, if you're the one who's different, I think it's generally a little dishonest to try to change that group, to try to become like you. They formed under this understanding of Christianity. Hey, if you don't like that, go start something else or go find somebody else who does it, as opposed to trying to twist them into that. That becomes problematic because occasionally it will happen where somebody will come along and be a minister at a church who tries to change that church and then ultimately, instead of following that advice, where, if they followed my position, to decide to leave because they're different now, they're forcing everybody else who's comfortable in this church teaching their theology to leave instead, and that's where it becomes much more difficult. If the polity structure doesn't allow it, there's really just not much way as far as to fight, like if in the end the authority comes down to a board within the church. Then if there's no way that you can find things being reconciled, I'd say cut your losses. You know, personal relationships probably aren't worth ruining to just fight and ultimately lose the battle anyway and go find someplace where you can serve God. There's so much damage that happens in church and denomination splits individually. There's so many people who've been hurt from those kind of things and just either pushed out of christianity altogether or really got a sour taste about a denomination that otherwise they don't disagree with per se, but just the events that happened in it have really messed them up that I see a lot of people like that in the comment sections of my videos.

Joshua Lindsey:

Um, so I think trying to avoid some of that fighting is a lot of times a good thing, but on the denominational level there's obviously somewhat of a controversy over should you stay and fight or should you decide okay, no, the Bible tells us to not have fellowship with unbelievers, and I can tell that there's like a whole bunch of unbelievers who are kind of running the show here. I'm not going to stay for 20 years putting up a fight or get out of you know, get out of this group and do something different and that that can be a much more difficult question, especially with people who you know grandpa was in this church, mom is. Is there berries on the buried behind the church in the blood? Yeah, and you know we've been here forever. Um, then there's a lot of personal questions that come in into the whole question.

Joshua Lindsey:

But you, you have to, you do have to take a biblical look at you know what is.

Joshua Lindsey:

Does the bible have things to say about those, those issues?

Joshua Lindsey:

And a lot of times the question ultimately comes down to you know, biblically, can I, can I follow what the bible says while remaining, uh, in fellowship with the group of people who will promote and even use church finances to to push things that are completely opposite to what I believe?

Joshua Lindsey:

I think that's what normally that's when it gets to the breaking point and denominations are splitting is when they say, like you know, I I no longer feel like I can fellowship with you because our paths are so different, that the church unity between us is no longer possible. And, uh, I there's just not a lot of good examples of where those kind of things get reconciled easily. Um, and if you can be, if if the two of you can be faithful in your local churches without the ecclesiastical joining between those two churches, then then go be faithful in those churches and don't have, you know, spend the next 10 years of your life fighting church politics as opposed to, you know, promoting the kingdom of god that's a good answer, and are there any other things that you want to talk about before I know our viewership?

Zack Johnson:

usually people make it to like the half hour 45 minutes so this is for the people who are left yeah, for the people who like to stop, interesting about any other deep passions that you, we didn't touch on.

Joshua Lindsey:

Well, I used to make origami, used to do that quite a bit, so I could throw that out there. Uh, christian denominations is kind of eclipse that, um, I for for a period of time while I was in college, I actually worked in a call center and while I was taking calls I would, I would fold origami stuff and I I still have some of my old creations.

Zack Johnson:

So for those of you who stuck around that wanted to learn, something I feel like that actually sort of connects to attention to detail, into research, I mean maybe that was like they're, maybe I was building me in a certain way, preparing for the, for the future.

Joshua Lindsey:

I didn't know it.

Zack Johnson:

And what's the easiest way to support your work for anyone listening?

Joshua Lindsey:

Yeah, so if a person is, you know I wouldn't ask anybody to support the channel it doesn't spend a good deal of time taking a look at it and saying that they really support the vision of the idea.

Joshua Lindsey:

My website is readytohardestcom and that's basically acts like a patreon page, so anybody can just sign up and make a small monthly donation and I recognize, like the person who does, that it's because they really like this stuff, so it's not like they're coming to try to buy something from me every time. But I do have there on my website, um, the transcripts of the videos with all the footnotes. So all the research that I did going to the websites and statements of faith are linked and a person can click through and do their own research in even more detail if they would like. And the videos are ad-free there, which, by the way, if you find yourself getting caught up in YouTube and you wanted to just learn about denominations and now you're off watching silly cat videos or something, if you go to my website, you can watch the videos there and you won't get pulled anything else.

Zack Johnson:

no, no recommendations, no edits, so that's maybe a little benefit for for people who support the channel. Right, that's great, and I just wanted to give you a shout out that I somebody sent you sent me one of your videos and my background, my last name is johnson, my wife's last name is stoltzfus, and so there, and even in my marriage, there was a lot of like. Well, we just like generational differences across beliefs, and I watched your video and I was like this guy, somehow he understands all these things that I've been trying to figure out over the last five years, and I think it was really, really helpful to see somebody put together a framework of comparison and I'm just really excited about your work and I'm also excited that it just it gives people a way to think about truth, and there's my one of my favorite quotes is truth is unkillable, and I think that, at the end of the day, all your videos sort of will contribute to that yeah, I'm happy to hear that.

Joshua Lindsey:

You know, when I got started there weren't a lot of people watching and so I was always thinking about the potential viewer in the future and and what I would hope they would walk away with when they watch the vide