The Sattler College Podcast

Evangelism in Daily Life

• Sattler College • Episode 15

Share episode

Sattler alumnus Timothy Miller reflects on how his journey of faith led him to pursue a calling in pastoral ministry and family business. Timothy shares insights on the importance of spiritual disciplines, integrating faith with work, and how the gospel shapes our view of life’s challenges. They explore the significance of witnessing to the resurrection in everyday life and how even ordinary vocations can provide powerful moments for evangelism. Timothy also offers advice on overcoming fear in sharing the gospel and building meaningful relationships within a Christian context.

Learn more about studying Biblical and Religious Studies at Sattler College:
https://sattler.edu/academics/majors/biblical-and-religious-studies/

Mentioned in this episode:

Timestamps:
0:04 – Introducing Timothy Miller and His Journey at Sattler
14:52 – Discussing Bivocational Ministry and Family Life
18:51 – The Role of Faith in Everyday Work
29:10 – Developing Spiritual Disciplines in Family and Ministry
41:40 – Overcoming Fear in Evangelism and Witnessing to the Resurrection

Support the show

Zack Johnson:

It is September 5th 2024. I'm here with Timothy, the Timothy Miller. How are you doing, timothy?

Timothy Miller:

I'm doing real well. It's my birthday, so what better day to be on a podcast.

Zack Johnson:

I did not know that Happy birthday, thank. You know that happy birthday, so thank you. I'd love, I'd love to just uh get a quick intro to who you are. Um, I don't have a bio or anything, but who are you, what are you about and, uh, what are some of your passions?

Timothy Miller:

yeah, so I'm timothy miller. Uh, I'm a sattler alumni. I was part of the inaugural class, the class of 2022. And so I lived in Boston almost four years working on a biblical studies degree. I am now back in Sarasota, florida, which is where I grew up, and currently pastoring in a local church here called Hope Fellowship, in a local church here called Hope Fellowship. I'm also involved in a family business, a furniture store, and then I have four very energetic boys who I spend a lot of time with, and one beautiful wife who is a very amazing person.

Zack Johnson:

That was a beautiful introduction, and then can you just remind me one thing we have in common, I think, is our love of naming children. What are your boys'?

Timothy Miller:

names Timothy. My oldest is Malachi, he's seven. My next is a five-year-old His name is Justice, our three-year-old is Cohen, and then our youngest is almost one. He'll be one next week and his name is Creed.

Zack Johnson:

Creed, I actually remember a conversation with you where you met somebody and they had children that had very similar names to yours and it builds some sort of camaraderie. Do you remember that conversation? I can't remember who we were chatting about.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, One of my professors had a good friend who their first two boys had the exact same name as ours. They were Malachi and Justice. And then our thirds are different. We're Cohen and they were. Theirs was Asher, I think, but we had talked about Asher for Cohen, so it must be a lot of similar thinking.

Zack Johnson:

This is a side tangent, but I'm just going to go on it. I'm still convinced that we have free choice in naming children, but we're completely shaped by something that that makes us choose similar names. I'm I.

Timothy Miller:

We had a. We had a great conversation about that when you founded this last winter.

Zack Johnson:

Right, that's, that's right uh, but I'm going to reiterate that that's continues to be the trend, that continues to be out here.

Timothy Miller:

We're we're affected by our cultural milieu. I think is the technical way of saying it. You can't get around it, that's right.

Zack Johnson:

Well, I'll throw you a couple of softballs here. I know that the podcast audience we're not exactly sure who listens to this, but I know that when I chatted with some of the new students here, some of them had listened, and so it's a Sattler-centric audience plus some people just probably tuning in to see what we're up to and checking in. Why, way back in the day I think I met you in either 2017 or 2018, why did you choose to go to Sattler back then?

Timothy Miller:

or 2018, why did you choose to go to Sattler back then? The thing that caught my attention initially was the fact that they were offering biblical languages at an undergraduate level, in particular, intensive, communicative biblical languages, which is quite unique in the college landscape. Biblical languages, which is quite unique in the college landscape, and my passion I really wanted to dig into biblical Hebrew and Greek, and most of the time you have to go to seminary to really get serious with biblical languages. But, not having an undergraduate degree, I wasn't ready to make that step, so this seemed like a great fit for me, being able to jump right into biblical languages at the undergraduate level, and definitely have benefited greatly from that. I still read biblical Hebrew and biblical Greek every day in my devotion, so it's been an extreme, really been a blessing for me.

Zack Johnson:

How do you do that in your devotions? I'm just curious, what does that look like?

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, it's pretty low key. So for me, part of my daily devotions is reading some from the Old Testament and from the New Testament, and so I still read in English as well, because I can't get through stuff nearly as fast in Hebrew and Greek, but I try to at least every day. It ends up usually averaging more like five to six days a week that I try to read at least a couple verses of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. So I have a Hebrew reader's Bible and a Greek reader's Bible in my devotional spot and depending on how much time I have, I'll spend more or less time in each of them.

Timothy Miller:

So since I graduated Sattler, I've read through the Torah. Now I just finished that recently and I'm into Judges, so the Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. So I've just I think I'm in almost to the second chapter of Judges now and I'm just going to try to read through the whole Old Testament. It'll take a while. But then in the New Testament, after I graduated, I started in the Gospels and I've read Matthew, mark, luke, just finished John and I'm starting in Acts now.

Zack Johnson:

It's like that's so encouraging to hear that it's still alive and alive and well with you. I think that's that's the whole point, right? I get such a thrill out of it.

Timothy Miller:

I I have so many good memories, Like I'll get to a word and like oh, I remember the first time Jesse introduced this word to Dr Schumann, the Hebrew professor at Sal. I remember the first time he introduced this word to us and there's usually stories and memories associated with them. So, yeah, it's been an extremely valuable part of my spiritual disciplines.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, well, I'll just throw in a pitch for Sattler that we're doubling down on the biblical languages. We actually hired like one I think it's just like one of 10 communicative Greek teachers, that's like obsessed with that, and they showed up this fall. So now we sort of got Dr Schumann on the Hebrew and this new guy is actually he's from Mexico. Originally His name's Jose, but he actually has more props than Dr Schumann, so he's walking around campus Is that possible?

Zack Johnson:

possible, it is possible. He's like possible it is. It's a. I was just been laughing at it because I remember this.

Timothy Miller:

can I tell a quick story? This is a little bit of a side, please, yeah aside, but uh, I was sitting in dr schumann's office one day and we're I don't know what we were talking about and he said that, um, when he decided to go the communicative Hebrew route and he was getting all these props and stuff, his mom was so embarrassed by him because she thinks, oh, he's this doctor who's a college professor, and she comes into his office and there's stuffed animals laying everywhere and she's getting on and like he needs to clean up and look more professional. And we had a good laugh about that. So if you know what a communicative uh language teacher is, that is being professional.

Zack Johnson:

having props, that's all over the place yeah, I, uh, I have a funny story from two years ago. We were interviewing a professor I won't say who it was and they wanted like a pointer to use to point at us the the screen and we were in the. We were in the communicative language class and there was a sword laying in the corner. So this biology teacher picks up a sword and and is teaching the class about biology with a sword. I always, I always get a kick out of that. But yeah, so we're doubling down and dr schumann and his name is jose diaz they're actually planning on doing summer intensives, doing a soft launch this summer for just like really in-depth biblical languages, and we're hoping to offer it a little bit beyond just the Sattler crowd. So, or the Sattler four year, the Sattler four years, anyway, that's. That's great to hear. I know I've been inspired by the whole cutting the English umbilical cord idea, but that's very far away for me.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, and just to be clear, I'm not, uh, I'm not close to cutting the cord. I, I'm, uh, I, I, I. I gained great benefit from it. It's definitely not my exclusive. I'm not skilled enough to read it exclusively and put it that way.

Zack Johnson:

That's right. And then I just love to hear you. You graduated in the first year, or the first 22. What have you been up to since you graduated?

Timothy Miller:

I know you kind of mentioned it in your bio, but yeah, so I graduated in the spring of 22 and we moved back to the community where I grew up Sarasota, florida and I had been involved in church ministry the church I grew up in before we left for Sattler, and so when I came back I joined the leadership team again, so I'm a pastor in the church it's a church of about 150 here on the edge of Sarasota, and so I got involved in that and then also my parents own a furniture store that I had grown up working in and stepped back into the store as well. So I'm in a managerial position in the furniture store and so between church and work, or the store and family, I keep my schedule fairly full.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, I can imagine and can you just explain a little bit about how you sort of think about them as sort of bivocational Christians. It's actually a pretty unique facet of people in the world who take on a it could be a full-time ministry position, but you also have a full-time job. So how do you think about that and are you surrounded? Is that your background and is that familiar to you?

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, it's the only thing I ever saw growing up in my church background. Um, I I'd say like I've wrestled with it pretty deeply on whether this is the wisest path for churches. Um, I think there's an argument to be made for full-time pastors, at least some level of leadership that is full time in the church. Um, but there is also a benefit to the bi-locational ministry. Um, there there's definitely a place for it.

Timothy Miller:

Uh, I, I tell other bi-locational ministers are some of the craziest people in the world. Uh, because, uh, we voluntarily choose to uh do a work that oftentimes reaps very little financial benefit and and yet lots of emotional uh strain. Uh, so, yeah, it's, uh, it's but I say that kind of tongue in cheek, cause it is it's an extremely rewarding work as well, and, uh, and sometimes there's a benefit to being able to. Anybody who's been in church for very long knows there's times where you need to just be able to go do something else and get off the strain of some of the things that are a struggle in church, and so having another vocation that you're able to go kind of pour some energy into can sometimes help you even. Um, keep, keep both in balance.

Zack Johnson:

Sort of like a sabbatical like or sabbatical like concepts, yeah, yeah, I, uh, I can sympathize. I sympathize with you on that, that. The idea of yeah having a lot at stake and the payoff here seems, uh, you really have to know the bible to understand the payoff yeah, no, it's absolutely.

Timothy Miller:

Uh, it's not a huge. Church work often carries little um benefit right now. It often takes years to see the fruit of your labors and many times it feels like the reward is small. But we know in the upside down kingdom that, even though it may appear sometimes like the reward is small, that this is really storing up reward that matters when we give ourselves to for Christ's bride. So, yeah, it's well worth it and yeah, well, let's I'll.

Zack Johnson:

This will lead into sort of a bigger conversation here, and I'm I know you've put a lot of thought into this. So, with that being said, people sort of understanding that you're a full-time minister but you also have a full-time job. So how do you think about integrating I'm going to use the word evangelism into your vocation there, and I know that you've probably studied some people in history that have done this in unique ways. People in history that have done this have done this in unique ways. So I'd love to hear about your thoughts on just that whole idea of integrating evangelism into your vocation.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, this is another example where I do think bivocational ministry can be a really good path, in that I was talking with another local pastor last year and he's a full-time pastor and he said something he's like there is a blessing you bivocational guys have that we don't, which is you're out working among your people more regularly, kind of in everyday environments, whereas, like for a full-time someone who's in full-time ministry, often they're working with people mostly in the context of kind of formal church environments, less so in everyday life.

Timothy Miller:

And I think there's something to that where not only do I get to work, there's people in the business that I work with that are part of my church, so I get to have kind of those informal conversations throughout the normal warp and woof of life where hard things come up and have to work. Through them you can see how people are responding to life. There's that. And then there's also you're working with the public and it gives you an opportunity to witness for Christ. You're working with the public and and it gives you an opportunity to witness for Christ, whereas church ministry you're often only working with church people or if you're, if you're a full-time pastoral, it's a little harder to to find avenues to be in more evangelistic relationships. So a bivocational ministry gives you kind of a natural path to connect with people who are not currently Jesus followers, and that can be a real blessing. So do you want me to go down a historical example of that? Then that I found inspiring.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, let's jump into it. I found inspiring. Let's jump into it. So there's a little known guy in the Anabaptist movement who I believe it was pretty early on in the Anabaptist movement there was some mid-1500s or so there's a guy named Hans Nodler who is a needle merchant and he becomes passionate about Jesus and his kingdom and and some of the beliefs that Anabaptists were promoting, that you're uh, you have to voluntarily choose to be a part of God's kingdom. It's not something you're born into and um, but he's not.

Timothy Miller:

He's not someone who has formal ministry education. He's not someone who's um, dedicated to full-time ministry, as it were, you could say. But he's just a common needle merchant and he, he the only record we have of him is in a court case where he's actually had charges brought against him and they're questioning him about his, what he's doing and why he's evangelizing and what he's teaching. And it becomes obvious that he's taken it upon himself that as he goes from town to town selling needles, that he tells people about the gospel and he speaks with them about the Christian way. And it's a really incredible example, I think, of someone who felt that Great Commission zeal and decided that he needed to make it a part of his everyday life and so he was like everywhere I went, everywhere I go, I'm just making sure I tell people about Jesus and I found that really inspiring to remind me you know my work that- I get to do in to the public is an opportunity to always be ready to, to share the gospel.

Zack Johnson:

And and I'm just curious, I don't want to put you on the spot in your vocation Do you, do you get that opportunity and do?

Timothy Miller:

you find yourself regularly exercising that. I think it comes and goes some based on what I'm doing at the time. So in I've done different things in the company. When I did sales, where I'm actually selling furniture to people I had a lot of opportunities during that time because you're working with people outside people all day long and you often spend you can spend a few hours easily working with somebody trying to help them make decisions, and often the course of those conversations, just other things in life come up and I found a lot of opportunities when I was doing that to bring God into the conversation or Christianity and have conversations about what people believed.

Timothy Miller:

What I'm doing now, I'm more on a managerial, more on the administrative side and I'm working more internally than externally, and so I'd say there's less opportunities but they still come up because, yeah, that there are. There are chances that arise and so I have to be really intentional because they're not as frequent. I think I have to be more intentional about being ready when they do come out up and and I'm trying to make sure I don't miss them.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, that's right, and I'm curious I'm going to go into a topic that we've been discussing in our own church community here in East Boston. It's a really interesting book about like the pressure sort of, these spiritual pressures that get sort of implicitly get put on people. That might not necessarily be applicable to everybody at all times he sort of talks about I think he's on some level of the of the autism scale and but he's pretty high functioning and so some of the things that Christians expect of him are like the most challenging things in the whole world and so and he gets into evangelism a little bit on, like what's, what's the church's role in, in encouraging evangelism but not making it a while doing it in a healthy way. That's not sort of a burden, like if you don't do this, then you're not up to par with the people who are doing evangelism. Does my question make sense to you? How do you what's like the balanced approach to encouraging evangelism without letting people fall into the pressure trap, even?

Timothy Miller:

though you do want to create good pressure. It's a funny, it's kind of a conundrum no-transcript sales. It's something where I'm interacting with the public every day, often with unbelievers almost every day, which means I need to really be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within me, because I'm going to have a lot of opportunities, whereas I have had a little bit of a hard time shifting the mindset with what I'm doing now. I don't interact with unbelievers nearly as much as I once did and at one point that was frustrating for me. But I think I've seen that in this season of life I'm I'm more discipleship oriented of believers than evangelistic of unbelievers, because most of my work is connected with helping fellow employees work through relational issues, often people who are Christians. I'm trying to live out what it means to be a Christian in our workplace and so maybe there's more discipleship stuff that's required of me than straight or classical evangelism, and I think being okay with that, not being guilty but then being ready. So I thought of when you asked that question I remember just last year. I don't do sales anymore, but there was a couple that I had worked with a few years back Actually, it was the summer of 2020. I sold them a whole house full of furniture. I'd worked with them for hours and had a lot of good conversations. I don't remember having like even super spiritual conversations with them, maybe a few here and there, and at some point I guess they had realized I'm I'm a pastor and like, out of the blue, I hadn't seen them in a while. They they had stopped in and just we talked. I saw him at the store, we talked, connected a little bit and um, and had a good conversation. They asked about my family and they had talked about having us over for a meal sometime. Just kind of it was easy to have a conversation with them.

Timothy Miller:

And and then a few months later, the the wife, calls me and says I've lost my husband and like, she contacted me at the store and says, like you know, can you pray for me? And so I just ended up praying with her and and he had died unexpectedly. There's some, some mystery around what happened and it was a really difficult situation. Uh, long story short, she ends up asking me um, she, I didn't. She asked me a few weeks later will you do like a celebration of life for him? And he was not a Christian she was, and she said there's going to be lots of his friends there who are not Christians. And I was like, well, I'm willing to do it, but can I share what I believe, can I share the gospel? And she's like, oh, I'd love for you to be able to do that.

Timothy Miller:

And so, even though I wasn't getting everyday opportunities to share the gospel in my new role because of this connection I had previously with somebody, I then ended up having an opportunity to share the gospel at a celebration of life to a group of 50 or 60 people, many of which I think were unchurched. I had a pretty big audience there for just at least a little bit. That was the fruit of earlier conversations in a different season of life. That was the fruit of earlier conversations in a different season of life. And so I try to keep those things in mind.

Timothy Miller:

And then, obviously, I think of my wife. Like her primary role right now is homeschooling, which isn't going to be something that leads to a lot of evangelistic opportunities, and so right now it's probably not a primary vocation of hers. It doesn't mean she shouldn't still be aware and trying to be ready if those opportunities arise, but it's probably not the season for her to be heading downtown to do street ministry twice a week or something. There are other things that she should be fully devoting herself to that and not feeling guilt, but this isn't a big part of her life right now.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, that that makes sense. Thanks for thanks for sharing that story. What did you? What did you talk about? You didn't know him super well, so did. Was it just like a? Did you just give the the the? What did you talk about? I was going to make a joke, but I won't.

Timothy Miller:

I well, no, I I talked about um, oh man, what did I talk about? I ended up talking about the story because of Winn-Dixie. I don't know if you've ever heard the story because of Winn-Dixie. Is that a dog? Is it a dog? It's a kid's book, fantastic book. There was a movie made about it as well.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, it's a really good kid's book and the primary point of the story is that we all have hurts that never heal.

Timothy Miller:

I think is kind of the big point of the story, and so I was reading that book at the time with my boys and I used that story. Many of it seemed like quite a few of the people who were there were familiar with it, and I used that to try to say we know, this is true, everybody knows there's hurts in life that never it seems like never heal, like we all have hard things that happen, and this was one of those extremely difficult things that I think was going to be really hard for people to fully know how to move forward on. But the books think the books um response to that question is like what do you do with these hurts that never heal? It's kind of like just be kind to people and make friends with his like, build good relationships, which is there's some truth to that idea. But I I tried to use that to segue to jesus recognized that this was the world we live in and he offered a greater solution than just being kind to each other. But there is actually a redemption to the, to the hurts that we face, and a full restoration and healing. That's possible through him and his kingdom, and I think I'm that's kind of how I got to the gospel.

Timothy Miller:

But that was the bridge I built to the gospel was like there is a way to heal the hurts that we face in life, and I kind of skated around like I tried to bless him as much as I could, knowing that he had not been someone who had professed faith. But there's others who have gone before me who have given wise pastoral wisdom on what to do when you're overseeing. This was called a celebration of life, but of an unbeliever, and I definitely benefited greatly from people who had been through those kind of circumstances and helped me think about how to use the right language.

Zack Johnson:

Got it, and this a just a side question I'll just say real quick it was a.

Timothy Miller:

It was one of the most unique experiences I've ever had as a pastor and it had nothing to do with me being like my church ministry. It was totally an opportunity that arose because of my business, because of the vocation I have in business, and so it was. It was one of those moments where I was like I really was grateful to God for the bivocational ministry that I had and and the opportunities that gave me to be a witness to his kingdom.

Zack Johnson:

So Well, I think what I was going to mention is I always forget where I hear things, but there's this kind of a funny story about a Christian who they took some corporate job and they really wanted the opportunity for evangelism, and so they said I'm just going to be a super diligent worker, full of character, full of integrity, full of hope, displaying all the attributes and really live the faith, but not profess the faiths verbally, and and so that was going to be their approach. And one day somebody knocked on their door and said hey, can I talk to you about something? And the person was like this is the moment I've been waiting for, and they closed the door and they said I've noticed something different about you. Are you a vegan? And so I don't. That story illustrates that somehow, professing with words the truth is very important in this whole idea of how to do, is very important in this whole idea of how to do evangelism in vocation.

Timothy Miller:

And, like you can't, it's really hard to do evangelism without the opportunity to speak, and the gospel is directly tied to verbal pronouncement like yeah, I, the idea that I know it's commonly quoted that Francis of Assisi said preach the gospel always. If necessary, use words. Use words right. Yeah, I don't. There's some truth to the idea that, like, our lifestyle should proclaim the gospel, and that's true. But the gospel is, in nature, a verbal pronouncement, um, and so there's no we. We have to combine both. We have to live a lifestyle that's worthy of the gospel and we have to have our mouths ready to, um, make a defense, be a witness for the gospel, um, whenever we give the opportunity.

Timothy Miller:

Because what is our vocation as Christians? And I was just struck, I was reading Acts. I just started reading Acts again. And what does Jesus say to the disciples before he ascends to the right hand of the Father? He says you are to be witnesses to the resurrection, like that was their vocation, was witnesses of the resurrection Interesting, and I do think every Christian, that is our primary vocation in this life is to be a witness to the resurrection. So there's ways to witness to the resurrection with our lifestyle, but in general, that's actually being ready to tell people about the resurrection and the hope that it gives us as christians so I, I love so, if that's, our primary vocation is to be witnesses of the resurrection.

Zack Johnson:

Can, can you, can you just like build that out a little bit about what that means, what the implications are for Christians, as that is a vocation beyond some of the things we've just talked about. Yeah, I think we, yeah, I think that's a familiar.

Timothy Miller:

I'll give you an example of my, of a failure of, of my own no-transcript, and you can get to go to heaven or whatever. And so we feel like that's what we need to do, and if we don't do that, then we're not being evangelistic. But in reality, I think what we're called to do is actually much more exciting, which is, wherever we go in life, there are circumstances that arise constantly that show the death that's in the world, yeah, and we don't know what to do with the death that we face day in and day out. And so we should be ready at all times to say but there's actually another hope, there's a hope of a resurrection, and this is how we can have that hope of resurrection, life, which is to give our lives to the one who rose from the dead. And just I was thinking about that because just yesterday I was, I did, I was out doing a repair I do some repair work for the store and it was an older man who had bought something many years ago.

Timothy Miller:

We went out to do a little repair on something he had and in the middle of our work he comes barreling into the room and is like you wouldn't believe, did you hear there was a shooting in Georgia, a school shooting, and I I didn't. And then he said and the Russians are interfering with our election and Iran is interfering with our election. And me and my coworker both stood there just kind of like oh, and? And he went on to say like oh, the world is just such a mess and we have like no idea how to fix it. And we're, um, and in that moment the thing that popped into my head was, yeah, we don't, but, but jesus has promised that there's a resurrection that's coming for us and for the world, that will reverse all the wrongs in this life, that will turn death to life and and that is the answer to, to the school shootings to, uh, power hungry warlords. Um, and I was a coward, I didn't, I just didn't say what I thought, um, and I'm not exactly sure why. It caught me off guard in some sense. I was like I don't know if this is. You know those you start telling it. I don't know if this is. You know those you start telling it. I don't know if this is the right time to say that.

Timothy Miller:

I'm going to sound trite, but I think God, almost certainly the Holy Spirit, was prompting me to be a witness to the resurrection right here in this place, where this man is talking about all like is wrestling with the death, the reality of death in the world and the seemingly powerlessness we have in the face of it. And I had an opportunity there to say, hey, but wait, listen to what Jesus said and look what he did. And I didn't take it. I failed.

Timothy Miller:

And I think those kinds of opportunities actually come up fairly regularly for almost every Christian, fairly regularly for almost every Christian, where discussion around sin, death, like all the brokenness of the world, comes up, and I think the Christian's response should always be like but what does the resurrection say about this? And like how does the resurrection change how we view this? And that's been something that's just been like really burning in my heart, and yet I still sometimes don't fail to verbalize it, which I think is a genuine failure, because I wasn't. I didn't have an opportunity to display the was I. I mean I was being a good person by by following up and like taking care of his problem and doing my work well and all of that. But I actually had an opportunity to be verbal about the hope of the resurrection we have in Jesus and I didn't take it, and I don't think there was anything particularly unique about my work in that moment that witnessed to the resurrection.

Zack Johnson:

Right, right, and so I guess the a million dollar question could be what are some ways to overcome that cowardice that I think? I think I, like you, said it well that we're prompted. But many times the easy way out is not to be verbal about, not to use words with the truths that we believe in. Have you and going back to that story about the couple you shared, sometimes you're prompted and it's really easy to to answer. You know, like, if someone's like, oh, are you a pastor? Then that's a, that's a softball right. But if you, if you don't get that prompt, have you thought of any ways to overcome the, overcome the, the tendency towards cowardice, and press into the, even if it's a two sentence, a two sentence line, you could say, or something like that, that's a hard question no, no, it's, it's honestly, I think it's like a lot of things in life the more you do it, the easier it is.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, and we become the habits that we cultivate, and so if our habit is to be a coward and to not open our mouths, like that almost always just gets more entrenched, and if the habit is to normally, when those opportunities arise, open your mouth and witness to the resurrection, it actually becomes easier to do and starts to feel more natural. And probably the reason I failed in that moment is that I haven't. It's been a little while since I had a conversation with an unbeliever where I really went into the hopes I have, and so I know, yeah, just having that mindset of wanting to do it regularly and looking for the opportunity even so, maybe something I have found that has helped me at times is there's a lot of conversations that come up, even among christians, where we can kind of think like the world, where maybe a christian comes up to me and says did you hear that there was a school shooting, that russia's doing this, that, um, you know, all this chaos is happening, and we just kind of follow them right down the dead end trail of like, oh, it's all hopeless and bleak and we all feel discouraged. But instead of letting that happen, saying, hey, let's think about what's happening here in light of what Jesus has promised us, hey, let's think about what's happening here in light of what Jesus has promised us, and how would that change how we think about this particular headline or thing that's happening in the world right now?

Timothy Miller:

And if we just verbalize it to each other more regularly, like this is our hope, I think it becomes more natural then to also verbalize it when we're in context with unbelievers. And I do think that's something I found helpful is that when I'm thinking in that kind of way, just in conversations with other Christians, it also seems to flow over into Because I have more conversations with Christians than I do non-Christians Like it's just. I think that's the natural way, like the body of Christ becomes your primary family, which is the right way, like the right thing. But then those conversations inside the body of Christ about what our hope is matter to and how we respond to the sin and the death and the brokenness that is in the forefront of our lives often and yeah, I actually like that about it feels easy to sort of it's not gossip but complain with fellow Christians rather than than to reconfirm the hopes.

Zack Johnson:

I think we don't have to get, we don't have to get into it, but I think the political election coming up is another massive, massive hope, opportunity, hope opportunity.

Timothy Miller:

This is a great season for us to practice that discipline of the hope, of the resurrection in the face of instability which our country will certainly be going through the next few months that's right.

Zack Johnson:

I still remember watching the last presidential inauguration with you. That seems like a long time ago, but we need to go to Emmett's again. Yeah, maybe, hey, if you're in Boston, I'll take you to Emmett's.

Timothy Miller:

All right. So if I'm in Boston January 2024. 25, yeah, 2025, yeah, then you'll take me to Emmett's. All right, that's right 2025.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, yeah, 2025. Yeah, then you'll take me down. I'm sorry, that's right, let me. I'm going to do a couple of just like rapid fire questions here just to pull some, some other things out of you. I I know that you and your wife are pretty I would call you voracious readers and really interested in in, like literature for, for children and things like that. Are there any? Are there any other books that you and your wife recommend to other families or homeschoolers that you've bumped into? Uh? Children's books yeah, just I think or any, anything that produces character.

Zack Johnson:

It's those things are are always fun to fun to talk about yeah, no, there's so many goods.

Timothy Miller:

There's so many bad children's books, but there's so many good ones too. Um, and this is a great question that puts me on the spot. I'm trying to remember. Okay, I'll start. Yeah, this is a great one for kids. My favorite all-time book is Oliver Finds His Way. That's what I have you heard of that one.

Zack Johnson:

I've heard of it. Tell me about it.

Timothy Miller:

It's this little bear who gets lost in the woods and becomes very frustrated, and he just cries and cries and doesn't know what he's going to do, until he starts thinking and it's like, okay, how to actually get myself out of this situation?

Timothy Miller:

And so he ends up roaring as loud as he can, and then he hears his parents roar back and then he finds his way home. It's a beautifully illustrated book, the story is phenomenal, it captivates kids' imagination and it's teaching a really important principle that I go over with my boys on a regular basis, which is there are natural tendency, when we get frustrated or like lost, or like feel like we're up against something we can't overcome it, just like I just want to get discouraged, I just want to cry, I just want to like throw a fit, but in reality that doesn't help anybody, it doesn't help you, it doesn't get you out of the situation. And so to be able to control your like calm down and think, okay, how do I actually respond in a way that will help me resolve this difficulty I'm up against, which is something I need to be reminded of pretty regularly and something I'm trying to remind my boys of regularly, and so that book reminds me of that principle, and so I love that book for little guys. Oliver finds his way.

Zack Johnson:

I'm going to go get that. Any other ones on the top of your mind before the next rapid fire.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, yeah. So I for older children, I'll never stop promoting the virtues of the wing feather saga. It's one of my favorite. It's for a little bit older kids my seven year olds just at the point of being able to maybe wrap his mind around someone. It's more like eight to twelve probably, but it's more of a of a fantasy novel series. But it has so many really valuable moral lessons throughout it that I think are really. It brings up really good conversations with families. So we were doing a read aloud with our boys in that one and there's a lot of things that come up that have provoked really important conversations.

Zack Johnson:

When do you guys read aloud in your? Is it daily, once a week?

Timothy Miller:

So my wife does read aloud with them almost every day as part of the school rhythm, almost every day as part of the school rhythm, and then usually we're doing a read aloud of some kind before our devotional time evenings. So we kind of are always looking for new read aloud books to to do as a family together.

Zack Johnson:

Great, and then I'm going to. I this is another putting you on the spot, but not really so. You did your capstone on. Why is the on catechesis or catechisms? Yeah, has that made your way into your, your life at all, or did it get left by the wayside?

Timothy Miller:

so, to be honest, I've spent not, I have not spent a lot of time on it since graduation. Unfortunately, there's there's work to be done to get it ready for publication. Um, what I have done is started. I did start to use it with my boys, uh, and I realized that I was still uh, aiming a little. What I have now was a little over their heads, like I needed to simplify more for their age range. So I've been working through it with them as I have time and taking notes and then trying to go back and simplify so that it, it, um, will be more beneficial for them. So, yeah, I am continuing to work on it, but can you?

Zack Johnson:

can you define catechesis or catechism for the layman?

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, it's. It's the practice of repeating the important things to um. Repeating the important things to younger people who need instruction is basically the idea. It's a practice that started early on the church. It started more as an oral practice where the very core important principles of the church would be taught orally to catechumens. Core important principles of the church would be taught orally to catechumens, who were people who were candidates for baptism, who wanted to become Christians, and often it's centered around things like the Apostles' Creed. It started out pretty basic but over time it can get more extensive and so it's often used as a way of either um teaching the print, the core principles of the Christian faith to, to, to children, or to baptismal candidates. Um, it's been the primary ways it's been used throughout Christian history, got it.

Zack Johnson:

And then I'm going to switch gears again here. So when you, when I asked you about why did people to share that passion with, or is that an isolated passion? And if isolated, is that okay, is a question I I ask this selfishly because I'm always looking for people with that passion and, ironically, I have some work to create that demand and so there's not a ton of people, of people whose instinct are to be searching for those programs that would develop that skill set.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, I honestly don't hear of a lot of people who are particularly interested. I think people are intrigued by the idea. Um, I think people are intrigued by the idea, but the most common kind of thing that I hear is people say like, oh, like you don't really don't need to learn it because we have all these tools that we can go back and look at the words anyways. And they tell us what, what it means in Greek or Hebrew, and, and so actually learning the language isn't that important anymore. I've heard that objection. I do think there's a huge difference between actually knowing how language works and then just kind of jumping in and trying to rip a word out and understand it just with the help of a concordance. It's not that it doesn't have any value, but it's a very different enterprise than actually reading something in its whole context. So, yeah, I would say I don't hear of a lot who are interested.

Timothy Miller:

Usually, when someone becomes interested, it's because they have some kind of exposure to more formal biblical studies, where they study through a whole book of the Bible in a more intensive environment, like at a Bible school I taught at, where you would go through Romans or John or Matthew or Psalms.

Timothy Miller:

Like almost always, when I see people actually do more intensive study of a book and they realize like how beautiful and um, intricately crafted many of the biblical books are, it seems to fuel like this sense of like I want to understand more, and then that can lead to to hunger for biblical languages. Um, but we're not really too often we're we're kind of trained to just dive into like one verse at a time, here, there and everywhere, and not really think about the bigger picture that books are trying, the bigger message that a book of the bible is trying to communicate. And when you're doing that just kind of diving in here and there and everywhere, maybe just all you need is the tools to be able to parse words for you. It makes sense to you. But if you start to see how the whole picture, like the whole book, is actually important and then the larger story in general, I do think it starts to help. You see that actually understanding the language just has a real value.

Zack Johnson:

Yeah, I think it is valuable in uncovering those bigger themes and stuff I, I think it's something that I was gonna, I was gonna sort of ask a question about hey, in in those daily devotionals, is that, is that a meaning? Has it been a meaningful experience to you to have that, that opportunity to to look at the original languages? Because we we talk about this idea of using as early on as you can, under whatever tools you can get to understand the bible, just like take them, and it's kind of like the investment to compounding interest into your own spiritual growth, where if you invest early on in these skill sets, then over time you know they build and build and build. And I'm curious if it's, if it's been meaningful to you, or is it? Is it geeky and intellectual and sort of? And no, I'm serious, I'm serious about that and sort of. And no, I'm serious, I'm serious about that because some people was like oh get that away from me like another.

Timothy Miller:

This is a great no, I love it. So this is what I'll say. I just want to up front say, for anyone who doesn't know the biblical languages, like I am, what I'm about to say is not saying you're deficient as a Christian in any way. The Lord can absolutely give somebody everything they need to be a mature Christian through just study of English translations of the Bible. It is your heart orientation toward the Word of God fundamental, um key about whether the Lord can speak to you through scripture. Um, not everybody has to learn the original languages. So just, I'm saying that up front, um, but then, like, a passion of mine is it does feel like when you start talking about reading original languages, people often think like that's for the academics, that's for the scholars, the people who actually don't really have spiritual passion, more of the geeky, like starchy kind.

Timothy Miller:

Reading scripture in the original languages is often a very devotional enterprise for me, right, that that fuels worship, and and so I I heard NT right, say this one time, and I think it's so true. He said when he was a young scholar, someone told him don't use a different Bible for, like, your personal devotions and then for your academic study. And he said I immediately thought to myself that's the worst idea I've ever heard. Right, and and I I always. I couldn't more. I don't always agree with NT Wright, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on that point, that that both our our more academic enterprises with Scripture can never be disconnected from our devotional enterprises with Scripture. Because the minute we stop digging into the Word of God to understand the God of the Bible, the minute it turns into something very different than the faith that's been handed down to us by faithful Christians through the generations, because every endeavor to understand scripture is an endeavor to understand the living God who speaks and acts in our lives today. And so I absolutely do find incredible devotional value in my I think sometimes people feel like there's this, anything spiritual happens through, just like Emotions, emotional, like there's some kind of deep feeling and like God just beams this knowledge into your head and then you're like yeah, I have real knowledge, but then, like academic study of scripture is is kind of just human powered study, um knowledge and so.

Timothy Miller:

But I want that real like spiritual. My brother-in-law brother-in-law and I were having this conversation recently and I and I just don't buy that dichotomy like. I think god is not opposed to intense study of his world and his word. And it is often in our working hard at the discipline that had been given to us in Christianity, like prayer, like scripture reading, like fasting that in that intense exertion to understand and know more about God he speaks to us in deep and profound and meaningful ways. And I have absolutely found that, as I dive deeper into Greek and Hebrew, that God speaks to me in that discipline. And that's not to say that there aren't people who let it go to their heads and they become starchy, nerdy people who think they're better than everybody who doesn't understand. And that's a real temptation and that is something that pride will prevent you from actually understanding the God of the Bible. So that is a danger certainly to be warned against and and wary of yeah, thanks for thanks for answering that.

Zack Johnson:

I, uh, I think it's just it's it's a misconception. I'm trying to convince especially young people, especially young people, about including my own young self, like if yeah, and I, I think there's a little bit of a a reason to make it compelling again, because it it's definitely doesn't have a cool vibe to it right now to to say that you're gonna go and devote yourself to, to the biblical languages. A lot of people are like, oh, you're gonna be a, you're gonna be a scholar, but rather than to say, no, I'm just, I just really want to understand the scriptures. So I'm just thinking about ways to talk about that, especially towards that younger crowd right now. One more question, and then we'll do. I'll pitch it back to you as anything that you wanted to say. So you are probably aware that the 500th anniversary of the first baptism in the radical reformation is coming up and I'm just curious is that meaningful to your community in any way? Are you guys planning a way to remember that or not necessarily?

Timothy Miller:

That's a great question. There's not been any conversation about it. I've been thinking about it the last month or two. Actually, it's funny you bring it up. It's like man, it's coming because I know you and I used to talk about it I talk about? Yeah, I have not taken any meaningful steps to uh preparing myself to commemorate it or my community. So what about you?

Zack Johnson:

we. So hon hans Lehman is going to do like an evening in January here and bring in some speakers to commemorate the baptism. And then I still have been. The 2027 date with Sattler's martyrdom is still the one that I really think should be the whatever the fireworks. But I've been more brainstorming and haven't come up with a solid idea. But that idea of pack inviting people to commemorate some well-produced form of content, I know the idea of a documentary, a better documentary or even a. Some people want us to try to go to a movie like a Sattler movie somehow, but that's, I don't know, nothing super significant beyond Hans. And then we're actually contemplating doing an alumni and family history trip at some point over the summer into where the Radical Girl Reformation happened In 2027.

Timothy Miller:

Yeah, or or leading in the next, just in the next two years, whenever you would you go?

Zack Johnson:

I?

Timothy Miller:

would love to go. I'm not promising anything, but that you definitely would get serious consideration for me.

Zack Johnson:

All right, got it well, I always end with just saying, hey, is there? Is there anything else you'd like to say to our mystery audience here?

Timothy Miller:

Nothing's coming to mind offhand.

Zack Johnson:

Hey well, timothy, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with me and send my regards to your boys and your wife. Keep raising those humble, meek warriors for, for the kingdom and um, yeah, thanks, man appreciate you having me zach, great to catch up again all right, take it easy.