Dive into the experiences of John Davis Jones, a theologian, missionary, and scholar, as he shares his remarkable journey from the American South to the heart of New Zealand.
He explores the fascinating dynamics of international religious movements, political theologies, and their intriguing intersections. How do we build bridges in a fragmented world? John shares his vision of uniting Christians worldwide by returning to the essence of Scripture, testing beliefs, and holding onto what is good.
Dive into the experiences of John Davis Jones, a theologian, missionary, and scholar, as he shares his remarkable journey from the American South to the heart of New Zealand.
He explores the fascinating dynamics of international religious movements, political theologies, and their intriguing intersections. How do we build bridges in a fragmented world? John shares his vision of uniting Christians worldwide by returning to the essence of Scripture, testing beliefs, and holding onto what is good.
all right it is November 21st 2023 and I'm here with soon to be Dr Jones and uh I'm going to kick it off by just reading your bio and we can go from there how does that sound it sounds good casual environment here trying to make it casual well this is your first podcast right first podcast so there's a bit of uh apprehension that comes with that but I understand all right I'll read your bio and then you can pause or correct me whenever you want sounds good John Davis Jones is currently working towards his PhD in religious studies from tea Waka Victoria University of Wellington New Zealand he holds a ba in biblical studies an MA in New Testament an MD from free Hardman University in Henderson Tennessee in 2013 John and his wife Aaron moved to puua New Zealand to work with congregations in the Wellington region after two years serving as missionaries in Residence at fhu which is free Hardman University John Aaron and his children moved back to Pua in 2021 to continue to work with Christians there and for John to begin his PhD work John's research includ interest include the history of international restoration movements political theologies and the fascinating intersections where they intersect um John hopes to encourage worldwide to work towards unity in Christ by constantly examining their beliefs in light of scripture testing everything and holding fast to what is good that's first Thessalonians 5:21 John thanks so much for being here yeah thanks for having me um glad to be here is there anything you want to add subtract explain that your average listener might not understand from your bio um yeah I don't know it's it's a pretty succinct bio but um we've been really blessed with some good opportunities to uh be engaged in Academia on one hand and then in Ministry on the other and it's it's always been about finding the the fine line between those and trying to engage in in both meaningfully yeah well I thought I could just start off by asking you could you just give me like your general life story and the the chronology of where you're from and how you got to to where you are now yeah absolutely um so I was born in Jacksonville Florida my dad is and and still is a um a minister in Churches of Christ and so they have a pretty large prevalence down in the South and so we um kind of traveled around a little bit I appreciated my dad not necessarily wanting to be in Bible Belt places so Jacksonville Florida to uh Virginia Beach Virginia to um Orange Texas now Texas sounds kind of like a Bible Belt place but down there um in the Southeast where most everybody's Roman Catholic or you know Cajun um more people are speaking uh cinjun than than anything else in that area um so I just kind of grew up um listening to my dad preach and and living in in these different places I graduated high school in in Orange Texas moved to Freed Hardman University to play soccer uh got a a soccer scholarship um actually no I didn't didn't have a SC soccer show I had a different scholarship but they let me um play on the soccer team and didn't do much playing sat around on the bench and uh but but had a really good time doing it and I had um always wanted to go to school there it's where my parents met I figured it would be a good place to go and uh just incredible experiences there that's where I met my wife to where um I started really taking a deeper look at spiritual things and deciding you know there there's more to life than just trying to make money and have a good time I need to think about um how I can best serve the kingdom and so from there um one of our professors introduced us to New Zealand and I remember getting an email from him saying that he chooses a few students every year to go to uh to Wellington or to New Zealand just kind of that uh the the north island of New Zealand to do some just a short-term mission trip and I remember going back to the dorm and um getting on the computer to figure out where New Zealand was I thought it might be like a Canadian province or something wasn't exactly sure and I was kind of embarrassed now to uh to admit that but um my wife and I were invited to go we said yeah let's let's check it out it was her first time ever on ever to get on a plane it's a pretty grueling flight to get over there it might still have some scars on my arm from where she was she was gripping just for the just for the takeoff you know it's kind of a exciting scary experience at first um but we went to a place called Palmerston North New Zealand and the church that we experienced that there that we worked with uh was so much different than what we had experienced in kind of American Christianity um I'd always remember just getting used to it but also kind of being frustrated with the fact that you've got a lot of people that but um at least the groups the church churches that we were a part of where um a lot of people show up for Sunday morning worship but like as soon as that final amen is said like it's kind of scattered people scatter and um what we saw in New Zealand there was a lot of um everybody was involved just the percentage of people that were involved in the work and not just showing up for for worship um we would go door knocking we would do a lot of evangelism and Outreach New Zealand's a very uh secular country um sometimes they prize themselves on being the least religious country in the world and so it's a it's a tough place to do Mission work they would largely consider themselves post-christian um but even within that I guess especially within that setting you have people that become Christians and a lot of times their families don't have anything to do with them anymore anymore so they find family in Christ um but then they're they're all in and they're involved in the work they're involved in uh hospitality and just showing love for for other Christians and we saw that and it was kind of almost selfish on our part that you know a lot of people said you're being so selfless wanting to go do Mission work in New Zealand but um it was kind of a selfish thing we thought these are the people we want to be around that's that's the first time we've really seen things operate in that way and so we moved over there and after getting married in uh 2013 um had all three of our kids in New Zealand we were we weren't permanent residents yet so we only have one child that's a a dual citizen he doesn't even know it or know what that means but how old is how many children do you have again we have three and so just had a birthday yesterday so we've got if I can get the numbers right an 8-year-old a seven-year-old and a 5-year-old MH and so the 5-year-old is a kiwi and an American uh the girls they're just just Americans but that we have permanent residency so we can go back and forth um pretty easily um but yeah so we decided to move back to New Zealand and uh after that first trip and uh 2013 we did everything that we could to work with the church there one of the things we found was that as uh technically Christian ministers we were on a a New Zealand work visa called a religious workers Visa um and the only thing we could do is work for a church and we found it was really challenging the moment that somebody finds out you work for a church they just like they just shut you off and they don't want to talk much anymore they think there's some ulterior motive like you're trying to get their money or something like that um so we did a lot of we tried to navigate those challenges and um one of the things we did we we taught English as a second language um using the Bible that was a a fun thing to do and then kind of focused primarily on on building up the church there teaching them skills and strategies so that they could um evangelize and um do Bible studies and bring people in um when we went back we went to Freed Hardman for a couple of years I was what was called the missionary and residence and taught some undergrad classes there uh but when we went back to New Zealand we I wasn't a religious worker anymore I was a student and people would just talk to me about religious things so easily where previously they wouldn't do that um so that was a really exciting time in our life and that we had more Church work opportunities than ever before and a lot less time than we we did before um so we really really blessed with that that last two years that we spent in New Zealand and um really blessed with the opportunity to to come and be here at Satler and um we've appreciated the folks here and have really had a great time getting to know everybody and and uh getting to work teaching the Bible and just uh for my own understanding that the name of where you're you're getting your PhD from say it one more time and so it's um if you were to talk to somebody they would say it's Vic like victoriia University of Wellington but um in recent years they've taken kind of the uh the Maui and put that on the front so Theo the Mari language would call itaka and that's techn it's like a secular in that's a secular institution absolutely so um the religious studies program there um some great folks but people from all over the religious Spectrum from non-religious to uh Buddhist or Muslim um Christian nominal Christian and and they're really kind of focusing on religion from a kind of a sociology point of view mhm yeah and so when you were a student there when you moved to to New Zealand you were kind of in a secular career like as a student as a miss it was kind of like your tent making is that a good way to think about it or not necessarily yeah I don't know how far this podcast will reach hopefully really really far but um they don't know it but the New Zealand government was our the second time we went to New Zealand they were our primary Mission supporter right um without the the scholarship funding and everything we wouldn't have been able to go and um so we're really grateful to them for uh making that possible and did anyone else do that are you did you model that off of anybody else of a of trying to fund your fund your living expenses there through through secular or studying at a secular institution I don't know if um so kind of my mentor um he while he was there he was supported to do Mission work and he he went through the same field of study um to get his PhD but I think he that was kind of secondary to what their primary goal was um I can't say that we had too much strategy in mind of you know we'll get the we'll get the school to cover our mission costs um I think it was more along the line of God's Providence opening up a door for us to go back and um I had applied to a number of schools in the states and when I applied to new New Zealand it was kind of an afterthought didn't really think uh too much of it but when I was accepted and you know granted a a really generous um stipend we get to go right back to the very same property we were living in working with the same exact church we had been working with is a a wonderful picture of of God's Providence and thankful to have had a chance to go back yeah yeah so I'll try to I'll try to ask some questions that I'm unfamiliar with so maybe our people listening could be Churches of Christ tell me a little bit about that their differentiators or distinctions as opposed to other other churches I I didn't even realize the differences till I was an adult and left sort of left on I'm like oh they are different types of Christians that you know what I mean by that yeah absolutely um so to kind of locate Churches of Christ uh historically there was um something that's been known as the stone Campbell movement or the American Restoration movement and there was a number of folks with um kind of of different takes on how exactly to do this which kind of brings us to Modern time and some of the the divisions even within the stone Campell movement but group of people back in the um early 19th century in America who said we need to just get back to the Bible like there's too much denominational division um and the way that we will bring about Unity is to talk about um you know how can we emulate the Primitive church and I know primitive kind of has a a negative connotation nowadays we think is oldfashioned and like not up to speed with technology or something but they just meant how do we how can we restore what we see in the New Testament and that was all based on kind of the belief that it was possible and that it was um that we had a responsibility to do so um and so people like Alexander Campbell or Barton stone or the Next Generation people like David libum um they took scripture and they tried to determine um hermeneutically how can we interp scripture to be the same exact people the same exact church we read about in the New Testament how can we Faithfully represent that in the 19th century or the 20th century and um with varying degrees of success and I guess those definitions of success might differ on on what you you think and believe and some of those interpretive questions um the the movement really grew and a lot of people started wanting to just go back to scripture and to drop any type of Arian or you know denominational names to drop any type of Creeds anything other than the New Testament so that that was the goal um and then you know different you know history has happened since then and there there's still a lot of people attempting to do that um but with with different emphasis mhm yeah and do you know how many denominations there are in Christianity it's not a good number um I I have a number in my head but do you know any Instinct Clark do you know I 20 to 30,000 for some reason 24,000 jumps to my I have the number 30 we fact check 30,000 denominations within Christianity let's let's run with that let's say given that's true you have a line here that really intrigues me you hope to encourage Christians worldwide to work towards unity in Christ by constantly examining their beliefs in light of scripture testing everything and holding fast to what is good man that's a massive goal yeah what I've I've just been in recent in recent life just seeing the the hard nature of U disagreeing over something with even within people you you love like within the church and how do you think about attaining that unity and what are some of the some of the things maybe even you're teaching your own children and your students about how do you unify and then there's another term that gets thrown around here what's a hill you're willing to die on like what what what is something that you're just you'll die on this before before you have unity and I was part of a panel that was like the topic Hills worth dying on yeah yeah and it's just it's an interesting topic on where to seek unity and then people end up drawing lines in sand and I I know was huge topic but I'd love to chat with you about it yeah definitely and it's it's a really fascinating thing to Think Through from a variety of different angles like at um like you know my my PhD topic that I'm working through at the moment is basically how Churches of Christ in New Zealand um how they arrived there from the UK they were pacifists um they believed that any kind of you know interaction with the state almost needed to be um subversive like the church is the kingdom mhm anything else other than that is um is a false attempt at at power that God has not sanctioned to to people and then within they arrived in 1844 by the time World War I came around they were just massively nationalistic uh patriotic for for Great Britain it's almost like make Great Britain Great again you know that type of thing and it's like how does that happen such a short period of time and you know from the sociology of religion point of view there's this kind of this thesis that certain things happen from a first generation of Believers that and there's this transition from what they would call sectarianism to denominationalism so a sect being like a group of people that believe they are the true church and these are the teachings that divide them from everyone else and as you kind of transition away from that you recognize the church as being um you know anybody who claims to be a Christian and and generally um has something along the lines of like you you come to agree with the state you come to agree with the fact that this is where you're located and and you've got to be a I don't know productive member of society and that that becomes more of a an issue like I want to be a good citizen of the country that I'm living in um and so kind of to to bring things back around to your question how do we what you know what are the the lines that we're willing to draw and the first thing before we even start thinking about those lines because they're obviously going to be there um we have to remember that Jesus the most probably important prayer that we have recorded of Christ in scripture it's hard to relegate any of his prayers but he's right he's about about to be crucified John 17 and he prays for Unity and if it was me I'd imagine you know if you were to take up John 17 and kind of break it up he he does pray for himself for the first few verses but what he's praying for is that he's able to glorify his father um then the next section he prays for his Apostles that they would be Sanctified by the truth and he emphasizes that God's word is truth he wants them to remain one but then I guess starting around verse 20 or so he he starts praying for anyone who will come to believe in him through the apostles words and so 2,000 years later we're able to recognize that Jesus is actually praying for us and he's praying for Unity he mentions that three times he mentions that um this Unity it's not just kind of an agreement to disagree you do your thing I'll do mine he he Likens it to the the relationship that he has with the father and the result of that will be that the world will know that you sent me and then elsewhere the world will know that you love them just as you love me and I think one of the points of of looking at Unity is that we have to from the very beginning we can't just say it's impossible we can't just say it's too big of a mountain to climb it's too hard uh because Jesus prayed for it and if Jesus prayed for it I think number one it's it's attainable number two it's it should be something that we pray for and and work towards as well um but it also kind of supposes that there are going to be divisions and what do those divisions look like and how can we bring people closer to truth um I know in 1 Corinthians chapter 1 even before there's any denominations there's no um this group doing the things this way or that that way you've got Paul speaking to the church there I want you to speak the same things have no divisions among you um's he's trying to root out that problem even before it starts and I think Romans later in the in the book uh close to the end we can know those who are um bringing about divisions by those who are teaching things that you have not been taught and so there seems to be a standard that we can come back to and I think um as difficult as it is um and as challenging and as it's as you mentioned it's just a huge huge ask for anybody um you'd have to devote your life life to that from the very beginning and and then hope for some fruits from that labor but if Jesus is is praying for that if Paul is emphasizing that from the very beginning I think we have to try to somehow balance unity and also Purity how how can we be honest and faithful to what God has called us to when there's other people out there that are doing their best to do that as well but landing in different areas different interpretations different conclusions and uh that's where that's where the work of all this that's where it all that's where the rubber meets the road so I think we have to first be willing to do it and recognize that it's and it's an essential that Jesus has prayed for and um also that we have the means to do it we have his revealed scripture we have the apostles words applying what Jesus has taught to that first century context so there's a lot of work there's a lot of work I also am realizing that in the podcast you're probably not meant to be looking at the camera as much as I am all but uh it's it's a it's like a big magnet over there I just keep want to keep wanting to look at it good my wife and I uh were watching a really cheesy Hallmark Christmas movie the other day yeah and you know that like they haven't really grabbed the best actors whenever you get like some who's just accidentally like looking over at the I'm worry about it um that word primitive what's your what's your definition of primitive Church um have you thought about that at all I'm I'm familiar with the word but it's a it was a new word for me relatively new yeah it's I guess if you think through the word like generally it takes this connotation of like I know this guy he doesn't have a cell phone he's he's he's a leite or he's primitive you know he's not he's not up to date with technology and if we think about religion in those terms um in the same type of understanding are we thinking that we are able to progress and make um Christianity better as we keep going um do we do we think that God is providing new revelation that's going to make us any different than um the church that Jesus established whenever he came or are we thinking of the fact that we look to the New Testament for our standard and our guide now we live in a completely different context than the um than the early church and so there's going to be a number of different things in which we look differently than them in um I don't know social makeup or the just the cultural context in which we live um but there's going to be a number of things that we do need to look like them if that was what was intended if we were intended to uh be following the New Testament kind of as a a standard or a pattern and so I'm of the opinion that we can't um make the Christian religion any better as we progress and in a lot of ways I don't know how how much technically we in technology or whatever how much we're progressing might be a bit of digression but chat gbt can really really improve upon the scriptures yeah yeah that a joke that was a joke sarcasm I've uh I've heard a talk given before taking the Lord's Supper that someone said I didn't really have too much time so I got on chat GPT and put this together and I thought wow we're really we're really losing the uh the soul of what we need to be focusing on yeah I mean the the word that I mean the the general line then that comes to my mind when I think primitive is it's always like pre Nan Council like somehow that's like the delineator of anti-an fathers being the Primitive Christians I don't know if Clark have you heard that as like primitive or not necessarily yeah I think that's one of the lines that people would look at but it's not an absolute yeah but like what's primary are we what is what is first best right and a lot of people will say no it's not and so that discussion might fall on depf years with a lot of people um we we need to progress as Society progresses then we need to Move Along right with it but what that generally looks like in my point of view is um kind of just sanctifying or providing some type of divine approval on on anything that the world says like this is what we're doing now this is the new project this is the new thing and I mean you go around all these you see a walking around Boston see all these different places of worship with uh flags and everything off the front that's like yep there's a there's Divine sanctification for anything that you you know that the world decides to do yeah colorful Flags yeah colorful flags and flags with fists on them right with threel acronyms I'm not going to say all the things but I I was just just touring one yesterday I I know what you mean um and you know beautiful places I'd imagine really really sincere people right but the the question then is um what what is our standard and what what stories are we telling ourselves to inform who we are as God's people and then one of the maybe I'll just ask this you've how many years were you in New Zealand again um six our first time and then two six plus two what what are some of the lessons you picked up over there and now that you've reflected a little bit being back in the US back in I mean a different you didn't live in Massachusetts before so now now you now you've got a lot of learning and interculturalism yeah absolutely and um and ways our time in New Zealand has um you know we became bicultural people you kind of have to you're either going to in you know encounter a new uh culture and decide like I'm going to do whatever I can to try to thrive here or you're going to run away whether that's like to your house and you create your own little American space or you actually just get back and go to America I've seen people do both of those things but when we came to Massachusetts we realized this is a a very different culture even from what we were used to you know America is a huge place and um people from different backgrounds different ideologies all somehow making up this place called the United you know States of America um but I don't know it seems like a lot of a lot of division um but when we went to New Zealand I think it was probably the first time for me to uh step outside I'd left America before um been to Mexico and Canada for for church related things even um but to live in another culture was the first time that it caused me to I guess from like a mythology point of view contextualize need to be able to contextualize the gospel to the new culture that I was in and it asks you the questions like what are the good parts of this culture what are the parts of this culture that definitely need the gospel to um to come in and sometimes liberate but sometimes we got to set some things aside so that we can follow Christ Faithfully in this place where we are um needing to do that also made me reflect those things same questions upon the culture that I had grown up in and that was kind of the first time where I realized there were some elements of my culture that were kind of masquerading as Christianity but it wasn't primitive Christianity it wasn't something that I had professed to uh find important I really want to ask those questions and how to how do we Restore New Testament Christianity in Wellington New Zealand I had to really take a deep look at what I thought it was and um if with the New Testament as my guide instead of kind of the culture of you know the American South and um Christianity I'd seen it there there were a few things that I recognized were a little bit um inconsistent with the way that I had been living MH yeah and remind me the the title of your dissertation or it's a it's can you remind me of it I can't remember no no it's it it changes you know so until it's published it's it's kind of changing but at the moment it's a question of um sectarianism unity and Purity and so uh Churches of Christ in 19th century New Zealand so it's kind of pinned as a important um historical look at things but um in doing so the the primary question is how did this group lose pacifism how what how did that happen and it wasn't necessarily because they looked to do that they they weren't they didn't set set off saying you know there's a few things we kind of want to cut out from here so we can whatever be more acceptable were you raised were you raised pacifist no no not at all so um I'm going to talk about that word pacifist a little bit I think we probably need to it's one of my uh it's one of my hobby horses but when did when did you come on to I'm I'm assuming hey there's something thing up with Jesus and his teachings here on how to love enemies what was your your trajectory there um it's a it's a really weird story um I remember back in 2008 and 2012 there was a guy running for the Republican nomination his name was Ron Paul and that's super weird I know Ron Paul yeah I have a lot of weird friends who were obsessed with Ron Paul and so I they're they're normal they're they're great people I think they're a little weird so yeah I I started had some really good friends and I really appreciate these guys um me I don't I I don't contribute as much as I should and need to but they run a website called the Christian exile. comom that kind of lays out a lot of how a Christian should look at politics and government and all these kind of questions and um it's really helpful and also it's open for debate for people to chime in and say what what's a better way of us Understanding God's story um but yeah was this group of friends of mine uh we're kind of on this journey together and we thought you know we're Libertarians like this we need to restore the Constitution you know these kind of things and the world isn't doing that and I think it was Ron Paul that kind of pointed out to me like a bunch of abuses of power U done by the American state and at first that kind of lent me to thinking like okay we've got to we've got to fix everything we've got to reform what is there but then the more I started noticing that and then moving to New Zealand was a huge step in this Direction people were pointing out to me um a lot of the inconsistencies and things that I I felt like I either have to try to defend America or I can actually step back and say you know there's some things that just aren't defensible and and the problem was that a lot of my identity was wrapped up in that like I'm an American this is who I am and then stepping outside of that context thinking through things politically and I'm not politically involved anymore or would not consider myself um libertarian other than libertarian leaning it would be nice if things were that way but I understand you know I'm not actively promoting that type of thing um all of that kind of working in tandem happened and then another big thing happened I was um doing kind of my Master's work through freed Hardman and I came across something that really blew my mind um these folks David lip scum Campbell stone for different reasons and in different contexts um every single one of them and then all the other early guys in the American Restoration movement they were all pacifists and I was like how did that happen right how did we become who we are now that that's not what it used to look like and so just kind of historically looking into people from you know my own tradition so there's there's been a big change that's happening now either they were wrong and we've fixed it or there there was something really important to what they had to say well so help me I think I think one of the things that I'm just thinking about as in my role at Sadler as an institution is how do you we have these things called our founding precepts that include include the ideas of enemy love and Christians shouldn't be participating in war and we it's something that we want to be in the DNA of our institution yet at the same time we want to be engaging and engaging with the world and having constructive dialogues and that word pacifism is like a there we go yeah it really gr it really grinds my gears right for a few different reasons I I'm for people who don't know I was in the Air Force for eight years and we've we've chatted about this a lot but do you like the word do you like the word what does it mean is there a better word um it's a good question is good or is it a good category of things how to think about the peace churches and sermon on the mouth I talk with everybody talks that I go to about my story is like ah like what's the right term we should be using and things like that yeah I mean something what does it mean like Define the word I a definition I you don't have to Define it but we should we should just talk about it yeah I don't know something that's always really resonated with me and one of the things that kind of just kept popping up from me keep asking these questions about my own beliefs was um I I was always taught and I'm incredibly appreciative for this always taught to use Bible names for Bible things and that would be a really helpful stepping stone toward Unity like if we're using the same term but we mean different things that that might be challenging and so if I'm coming up with a term that isn't necessarily scriptural that's that's a challenge but it's you know as people as language progresses and people use it for different things I think pacifism sounds a lot more like passivism like I'm going to just sit around and be a doormat and people can just do what whatever they want to me and my family you know I don't care I'm just or like non-involvement in important conflicts right yeah absolutely but when we look to the early church we we don't see that we see this Um passion which I think is kind of tied up in the the original meaning of the word um this passion to be involved but not to use the traditional weapons of warfare that the world uses but to wage in that that spiritual Warfare in a different way and often times that means sacrifice mhm and that just seems so antithetic to so much of what America promises and even the American church that it it makes you ask the question well does that make me look more like Jesus in doing that and I I think it does but as for coming up with a new word um and that's that's a challenge any word you come up with is going to have some baggage and I think maybe we maybe we just keep whatever word we use we hopefully we have opportunity when using it to have the conversation yeah yeah you could say I'm a non-violent enemy lover who doesn't take Oaths I'm I'm just kidding there you go I'm just kidding I I think about this a lot and even I actually talk about the the Spanish translation of the Bible because I grew up there and the beatitude blessed are the peacemakers for theirs they shall be called sons of God that that word peacemakers actually translated as paf which is a pacifier so that's it's made its way actually think that word has made its way into different translations and I always I always talk about people like I picture the little thing you put in a baby's mouth that like is that the same word in Spanish pacificador pacifier right so they would use that for babies no not necessarily but that's what I picture but it is someone who pacifies a situation and all all that being said is one of the reasons I think I don't like the word is it my I my like for God and Country identity Fight For Freedom part of myself is still much very much alive right and a lot of things fan that flame um re current events fan that flame like man like there's a lot of trouble here and I think the church the the the people who read The Sermon on the Mount and read Jesus teachings the the instinct to get involved is the right one in my humble opinion I mean right and it's not too I think a lot of people think that you take that flame and you extinguish it right but that's absolutely not true if we look at the passion of Jesus's life it's right that flame redirected for God's glory and not for the vain Glory of men and the Nations so and then did you read so you read history to to awaken yourself there I there's a quote that uh that David Vero used when we were starting this platform he's a he's a well-known author and was involved here but he said most Christians know more about the most American Christians know more about the history of their country than they do knew about the history of the church and I think that's I think that's generally true I think so I uh I I don't go around on the street quizzing people or go around the search quizzing Christians but like how do you how do we think about that and how do we think about opening people's eyes to the values of understanding church history as a really important thing that we should be paying attention to and I I don't know if you have any thoughts or any resources or books that you might have come across in your your journey uh it it's kind of funny because for a group that emphasizes so much we need to get back to restoring the first century Church to then not know very much about the first century church outside of the New Testament um like what happened second third fourth Century um for these people to unanimously up to you know to a certain point in time uh reject military service and and everything that came along with that um that's a huge that's something we need to try better to understand and so I would really encourage people to to have a look at um the the church fathers anti nine writings not not so much in a way that like we need to somehow recreate the third Century church or the second century church because they're going to have problems that they're dealing with um and I think we can say even if we're using the New Testament as a standard that sometimes they even might have handled things in a way that wasn't perfect and and wasn't wasn't good so I don't think they can be a picture of um kind of normative theology we always have to keep going back to the New Testament and trying to apply it in our own day but isn't there some real value and recognizing that these folks all agreed upon this for an incredibly long amount of time even though it caused them to have to make sacrifices many people lost their lives it's just a just an amazing thing so I would encourage studying history um I would encourage looking at the different nations and um throughout even the biblical story like how how is Babylon portrayed in the biblical story how was Persia or or Syria portrayed in the biblical story and when we can can look to Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 and how that plays out in the New Testament Christ kingdom is shown to be superior to all of those things even though we live in we live in the Empire right now and we look around and everything is magnificent and amazing and it's you know the stories that they're attempting to tell us are incredibly powerful stories um but that just means our grasp of the biblical story has to be that much stronger because of the sway and the pull to um to kind of shape Christianity in whatever image is most popular whether that's American or or woke or whatever it is right we've got to understand those things through the gospel through the through the the true story The Real Thing are there any books or oh any books that turn you on there that you might refer people to this is a a super old one written um right after the American Civil War but civil government by David lipam oh um it's kind of obviously outdated that was that was a a really helpful one for me especially coming from my background um there's Preston sprinkle um especially from kind of aiming towards an Evangelical audience and people that would have been thinking about the the real sacrifices that American soldiers have made and you know the people that are are really you know caught up in those types of things trying to understand Jesus's teachings from a kingdom persp perspective and not just interpreting that through you know the eyes of America he wrote he wrote a book called Preston sple wrote a book called Fight for people that don't know and then it got rebranded I think nonviolence I think I read it as I read it as fight and then the new one actually has a forward by Greg Boyd which I always I always think is interesting that was a great Greg Boyd as well sorry didn't mean to cut you off no no no no but uh yeah the uh myth of the myth of a Christian yeah that was big I I remember for a while buying that and um giving it out to people like thinking you need to read this and then it it really is it's it's a myth yeah I uh I'll get put give 30 seconds here about how I became aware of Greg Boyd later on in life when I I did a gap year while I was at the Air Force Academy and when I came back my my boss I I won't get into it my boss at the organization I work that was a Quaker in Africa right mhm I was in mosm Beek and the guy the country director of the organization he was a Quaker and he very in a friendly fashion just engaged engaged me on the question of I I've been joking with my wife about filming a documentary called what is a Christian like a play on what is a woman kind of this idea of like hey what do Christians do and it's like the obvious answer is like they follow Christ du but he really he was the first person ever to really sort of put his finger on that and he says I think you're there's some tension here he did it very friendly because the organization was a very Evangelical yeah organization and so when I came back to the States I sent I I still have I sent a bunch of Facebook messages to all my good friends and was like Hey can you follow Jesus and be in the military and out out of I sent it 35 people one person said most likely not right and it happened to be somebody that went to bethl under Greg Boyd and they're very so Boyd used to teach there and and was teaching that all that to say is I had no idea that that was even an option that it was an option nor nor that like some people actually hold that belief in the back in the back of their minds and don't actually talk about it right I I had a couple other people in my life come out and they said something like we're so happy that you made this decision that they were like great family friends who would have never whispered it because of for fear of like for fear of offense or something like that and I always think about that like man why don't why don't we engage in these important conversations absolutely if we have the thought in the back of our mind how can we learn better to to dialogue about these things that we think are very important that was a side tangent other than than a really good friend of me had had been a student under Boyd at in Minnesota and yeah he's um that was incredibly helpful helpful book for me too um kind of turning the interview around asking you a question yeah how do we how do we deal with the fact that these are truths that Jesus expects us to follow but also recognizing and i' imagine both of us coming from kind of this transition like we weren't we weren't taught these things at home growing up um how do you with this understanding that it's absolutely necessary and important how do you handle that in a world where there are um people that we hoping will come to believe that but but just aren't aren't there yet like in the Christian world yeah in the Christian world the people that we we love and we know that they love Christ that they're just just haven't arrived at those conclusions yet yeah if we can figure this out today then we Sol the million-dollar question we've got we've opened up a lot of uh big questions Sly I mean this is where even like I said before at Satler I'm trying really hard to create an interdenominational environment where where I'm okay with people not necessarily believing exactly the same things I do however fighting against them is something I'm trying to maintain all that to frame is that I don't want to like say like if you don't believe exactly this you're out right and so I just want to frame it there with my own death I one of the fascinating things for me is when I was really just relooking at the seron on the mount and looking at Jesus's teachings there there was a story with my dad that just still flashes in my mind where we were we were down in Ecuador and there was a we were eating at a restaurant and a little girl had had um she'd stolen a phone or something and and the person got the person yelled and the little girl got caught in a security card grabbed her by the ponytail and was dragging her in the parking lot and it was like a huge scene yeah people were were sort of around and you get this really interesting environment where like people there there's like a mob mentality of like yeah she deserves whatever to be beaten and you see this little girl being dragged in the street and my dad knew enough like there's enough good heartedness in him he went he went up and and wanted to stop the scene and this obviously didn't want this little girl to get hurt and so he put the security guard under fake civilians arrest it doesn't exist in Ecuador but he he sort of just my dad's a legend in his own right yeah and she he just pointed up and he's like put her down you're under arrest and and somehow somehow the security guard was like okay it's like here's this man and then somehow that that situation deescalate and somehow that security guard didn't beat that little girl that little girl hopefully wasn't hurt but that's the type of moment where I look it's this this really Vivid story in my mind and I I've talked to my dad about I was like ironically I think that was that moment that you showed me was most similar to what Christ was getting at and it's really impactful for me so all that being said is I I try to like flip the script and say hey when I look at your life the moments I feel like you really look most like Jesus is when you actually apply these things in in a real life context and I think that actually has work has generally worked sort of well right for for people like my my own dad who I'm I think are that's probably the people that I think about most are the people closest to us yeah I think with with my my parents with um mentors and and people that have really helped to shape who I am um they were always provided me pictures of of who Jesus was that's right pictures of Mercy pictures of love and and sacrifice but it's almost as if there's this piece of the puzzle that we've taken because of our American background and we've taken it and we've we've shifted it a different way that it's not supposed to fit and we're just doing everything we can to jam it into this picture and um I I feel with a lot of people in conversations that I've had like real tension but not knowing how to sort it out because the stories that we hear from our culture are they're they're incredibly powerful and we've invested in them and that's sometimes who we identify as and um it's it's a huge challenge I I appreciate all the opportunities and blessings that have come my way to help me to figure out how to fit that into what I believe to be a better picture of of Christianity but I know there's a lot of people that that just aren't there yet and I'm I think just like the person that really influenced you there has to be a uh a gentleness just like Christ that's right has to be a gentleness and um mercy and kindness and forbearance and might take a while and I think the other the other thing that I've it's always this always comes up later on in life is people always ask and so the the not the enemy love thing is one area but there's other things in the Bible that naturally follow um you said what did you say examining beliefs in light of the scripture my guess is that if you start there you it opens this portal into oh what else did I miss in the scripture and there's this idea that you can divide things into salvation issues and non-s salvation issues and I just generally think that's not very helpful in my mind is like right that's not the way we should be bucketing the scriptures is salvation issue non-ss salvation issue salvation issue non-s salvation issue I'm getting somewhere with this okay so so with with people close to us I really really really reserve the right to say I think there'll be a variety of Christians in heaven who are from various stripes and walks of life and I'm not trying to say there's one way that leads to that leads to the the Pearly gate so to speak and I think that little opener always somehow it invites more conversation into these things rather than saying for me to say if you don't believe this now that you're not going to end and you're not going to land in heaven has been generally helpful for me to right to begin does that make sense yeah absolutely and just the concept that and and thank goodness that we are not the judge that are God is a righteous judge and he's going to make those determinations I think the whole buckets of salvation issue versus non-s salvation issue I think a lot of times people come from that with kind of a helpful point of view like that I I really want to focus on things but you know I need to allow for the fact that there might be other understandings and I don't want to be too exclusive by doing that so let's have this Bucket over here right but in doing so um you might have some teachings that Jesus has given and absolutely we we need to be honoring those and they fall into that bucket you know that's and that's a challeng I think just my own stance on this the and this is a hard stance is I think anything could be a Salvation there are many things that could be salvation issues like so to speak that God actually tests your heart different individuals have that different one thing there's these Parables of the young man that approaches Jesus he says what must I do to enter Jesus identifies what it is that will probably be the mo biggest barrier he says sell everything and he's like oh no I was hoping you wouldn't say that right and so I've kept all the things in the law and even the even the disciples that day looked at that individual and said wow you know he must be doing everything right because he's Rich God's blessed him with all that but you know if he can't do it what what chance do any of the rest of us have yeah um we'll keep going here I think we've been going for about an hour just less than an hour so we won't we won't go super long but you gave a you get we have these pearls and you you talked about about rugby oh yeah you talked about Christianity being more like rugby and football and things like that but just in general are there any like tidbits of wisdom that rise to the top of your list that you like to share with with people if you get a chance and I know I'm not going to get ask for like top five but just like General pearls to leave with the audience that you've you've come to appreciate in life right well one of the just as a bit of a context I guess um Satler every day has a as a pearl that is given someone sharing a bit of wisdom I've really appreciated those in today was really focused just on wisdom kind of in general and I don't know the more and this the things that I'm coming away with later in life later in life you know I've still got a lot of learning to do a lot of wisdom to gain um but as I'm starting along that path to maybe gain a little bit of wisdom um the things that I keep seeing to be relevant and important they're just basically things that you would have found in the Book of Proverbs anyways it's like keep your mouth shut and listen um Clark that's yeah I'm just kidding I'm just kid I'm kidding I'm on it it it's that might be like the message translation of some proverb you know but um I remember like in newand we would have uh American students that would come over and and work with us and we were able to get them to do a lot lot of like groundwork so that we could find people who are interested in spiritual discussion or Bible study and having like a larger number of students come they could do a lot that would take hours and hours for us to just do on our own and the people that were the most helpful to us we call them campaigners right it's a it's a spiritual campaign um the people that were the most helpful were the people that came with a humble attitude they came with um a willingness to learn and ask a lot of questions and just kind of step into a situation and say I'm not from around here I'm certainly not an expert I need to uh I need to learn and in doing so that will that will make me useful that will make me um helpful and effective we had a lot of people that would show up and would act like I watched a couple YouTube videos I'm an expert on New Zealand culture now I you know put me in charge and the people that were incredibly helpful and the people that we became closest friends with were those who said I need to learn and I think if we're able to do that from a a spiritual point of view no matter who we are if you have a PhD those letters don't mean anything and in God's um in God's view if if you're a Christian and you have been your whole life and you're an elder in the church I think every single person from new Christian all the way up to someone who's about to enter their reward we have to be humble we have to continue going back to God's word as a standard and recognizing there might be points in which like I've been either incorrect or just um incomplete in my understanding and so that kind of reflection and and as frequently as we can do it self-reflection I think is a helpful thing and so that's something that has been quite helpful for me to think through that um trying some humility for once because there's been a lot of times in my life where that was certainly not a a motivating factor I it's just just to pin this I was just reminded of this again I know this but how do you develop intellectual humility in Academia that's like the biggest threat to our institution I I think it's a great that that freshman show up they take a class and they show up they go back and they're like I got it all I learn I've got I've arrived I've got the answers any ideas there um it's I think it's the uh the motivating factor am I coming here to become an expert and my new found credentials now I can like just say what I want to say and be in charge or am I um attempting to do these studies and I'm I'm putting all of that on the Altar and and allowing it to glorify God that's that's a huge question I remember taking Greek and um after Greek two so we've taken two semesters of Greek we're in there four days a week um really great instructors I remember being told then like now you know enough Greek to be dangerous no and it's like oh what what do you mean by that it's like well now you think you know now you think you know Greek and that you can do all this fancy interpretive work and what you need to do is keep studying and so I kept studying and the more I studied the more I learned like there's a lot of there's a lot here and I'm really thankful for the opportunities that I've been given to understand this at a deeper level but um you know I can't be acting like an expert I'm I'm just I need to always be a student yeah I uh on the Greek part we had a we had a guy here last year called named his his name is George clanis have you have you heard that name i' I've heard heard the name around yeah he wrote a book called Caesar and the lamb and he he's out of Wheaten and he's a native Greek speaker and he he runs the center for ear for early Christianity out in Wheaten okay and he's I thought I would really impress him and be like all of our students St Greek and he was like oh interesting and all that being said is he was like I I grew up speaking Greek then I took IAL Greek and I studied a lot of Greek I can he said I can handle the early the New Testament in Greek no problem sub to agent no problem and then he said and then I can even handle the the pre Greek Works before and after I can actually read the early Christians G have done a lot of it right and he's like and I even still run into tons of problems yeah like all the time and I divert back to to English he just I think I I learned a lot from him being like that Greek isn't the an knowledge of Greek isn't the pure answer of how to how to tackle the scriptures that there's got to be a spirit of God on top of it almost I think it probably more important is the spirit than the language paired together I think they're powerful but I was reminded of that too absolutely it kind of reminds us not just Greek but just kind of zooming out education as a whole um are we using this as some type of idol that we're to Elevate or use to elevate ourselves or we um saying Lord thank you for these opportunities thank you for these blessings I know a lot of people don't have these opportunities how can I use this in your service and it's always just a question of stepping back and um remembering how how small we are even if we do have some Advanced degree how can I be how can I be a servant I appreciate seeing so much of that it's hour yeah do you have any passion projects outside of your PhD work right now I woo I yeah um when the PHD is done I would really like to um kind of start working on a a way of of sharing um the biblical story and how that applies to politics how that applies to um government and so maybe a bi I don't know I don't know how to even term it a Biblical Theology of political theology how can we look through um it's somewhat like I mentioned David lipom civil government that's kind of what he does but he did that in 18 late 1860s how do how do we do that today how do we look through the biblical story and place ourselves within an accurate understanding of Christ's Kingdom versus the kingdoms of this Earth and I think there's I feel like there's so many Christians that are are really close but they're still elevating America to a place in which it shouldn't be yeah can you can you have that figured out by the next election season I'm just kidding oh well I've got you know time's running out for that uh I think I I actually think it's a good thing every election season here it comes top of mind to me because I actually think that's a prime somehow the political environment is a prime way to get people to engage with those types of thoughts maybe right um I was used to be under the impression you you just got to get the right person in the in the right office and that's going to solve yeah all the problems and um the older I get the more I see well that didn't work and then the other side did it and that didn't work and then back and fourth and you know Jesus is is really the only answer yeah uh you may or may not see me in the streets holding up a sign that says love your enemies I I'm just kidding I've done that one maybe the end is near no no no I'm not that guy um and then any any other like resource or book recommendations that have influenced you over the years authors books movies podcasts sites that you think you you like to point people to to engage with I just like to leave resources for people who are looking to to keep growing um I I kind of mentioned already the the chrisan exile. comom it's a I I haven't written for them in a long time it's a really small Niche group of people but I appreciate them a lot in the work that they do um there it it's kind of strange when you recommend something because yeah don't you know what I mean you can say chew the meat spit out the bones too I I reserve the right to always say that in general with everything so there's no if not you don't have to well there's um the Bible the Bible's a great book The Bible um I I asked the college President the other day like what book do you recommend he said the Bible like are you serious man no I'm kidding I it was a good it was a good recommendation yeah um I mean influential in some ways but you know Stanley how was and just's a number of these individuals that are kind of pointing back to uh there's there's two kingdoms a Theology of understanding ourselves as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven primarily and like yeah we might happen to be citizens of America too but that's so far secondary that it just it you can't even say it pales in comparison it's it's nothing in comparison um and so people that have pointed me in that direction uh and every one of these you could mention like well what about this you know John Howard Yoder Stanley Howard was um a number of other influential writers that have have done that but I I would just encourage people to um to leave whatever culture that you feel comfortable with and go and spend some time somewhere else where you're uncomfortable and then start to look at your at your scriptures again the same Bible that you've been reading um in this new place how does God speak to the people here um very different culture it might give you a little bit better perspective of where you where you might be um misunderstanding some things right yeah so take a take a mission trip somewhere or better yet go and and live somewhere else outside of America for a while if if you have the opportunity to it's it's a huge blessing right well any other last minute thoughts or Clark any last minute burning questions from you nothing comes to mind any other anything else you want to say I don't know when this will be produced but uh Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and uh blessings for the uh the up coming new year all right well I'll close here this episode was brought to you by Satler College we still don't have a title for the podcast but some of the things some of the most exciting things happening at Satler for the people listening I think I'm going to tell I'm going to say it we've been giving a sneak preview but the next podcast we're announcing entrustment which is basically sers initiative to kill tuition and invest in students serving bringing healing to the the broken world through various capacities so we're super excited about that and come visit Boston that's like I think that's my other just call to action to anyone listening we have these guest rooms at the dorms and they might not be around forever so so come and come and visit Boston and hang out with with soon to be Dr Jones man that be great that just rolls that rolls off the tongue pretty good yeah maybe the soon to be part will be gone one day that would be nice when when are you expecting to I've got a lot of work to do over the Christmas break but um I'm hoping you know March or April for a defense okay well and maybe we can pray for pray for you and all that hey appreciate those prayers thanks for thanks for joining in and thanks for having me this is great yeah this is great I learned a lot all right thanks everyone