Imagine a place where higher education and discipleship go hand in hand. That's the intriguing premise we explore with our guests, David Glick and Kristi Mast, co-directors of student life at Sattler College. David and Kristi offer a fresh perspective on the relationship between academia and faith, providing a compelling vision for a new approach to education.
The conversation takes a deep dive into the cultural influences shaping our worldviews and how Sattler College fosters a love for Christ in its students. The concept of a 'curriculum of Christlikeness' is introduced — an approach aimed at motivating young minds to develop a strong desire for Jesus. Moreover, we delve into how good visual design can serve as a magnet for complex content, with David recounting his journey at Sattler College and his decision to pursue a master’s degree at Boston College.
As we wrap up, we gain an insight into the reading habits and personal projects of our guests — from life-altering books to unconventional hobbies like turning a cargo van into a camper van and foraging for culinary mushrooms. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of education, faith, and personal growth.
Imagine a place where higher education and discipleship go hand in hand. That's the intriguing premise we explore with our guests, David Glick and Kristi Mast, co-directors of student life at Sattler College. David and Kristi offer a fresh perspective on the relationship between academia and faith, providing a compelling vision for a new approach to education.
The conversation takes a deep dive into the cultural influences shaping our worldviews and how Sattler College fosters a love for Christ in its students. The concept of a 'curriculum of Christlikeness' is introduced — an approach aimed at motivating young minds to develop a strong desire for Jesus. Moreover, we delve into how good visual design can serve as a magnet for complex content, with David recounting his journey at Sattler College and his decision to pursue a master’s degree at Boston College.
As we wrap up, we gain an insight into the reading habits and personal projects of our guests — from life-altering books to unconventional hobbies like turning a cargo van into a camper van and foraging for culinary mushrooms. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of education, faith, and personal growth.
It is October 16th, Monday morning. Welcome to a Soutler podcast. We don't yet have a title, but we could discover it today. I'm here with Mr David Glick. Hi, David.
David Glick:Hi Zach.
Zack Johnson:Good morning. Good morning, I'm also joined with Ms Kristie Mast Good morning. Hi, kristie, good morning. So we're just going to have a conversation about your two separate lives together, so I know it's going to be a little bit interesting here, and then we'll try to unify some of the themes that you talk about. How does that sound? David, you don't have a bio on Soutler's website so I can't read it, but I'll send somebody a note. Can you tell me, can you make up a bio on the spot in 30 seconds?
David Glick:Oh yeah, I don't know why there's no bio on the website, but I from Pennsylvania originally. I come from an Amish family. I spent some time in Greece during my 20s working in a refugee camp and then moved to Boston around three years ago to attend Soutler and now I work at Soutler.
Zack Johnson:And you're also going to school somewhere, right, and I go to school here in Boston at Boston College.
David Glick:Very one of those unique ones.
Zack Johnson:All right, kristie, I'll read your bio and then I'm just going to read it word for word, and then you can correct its staleness. Sounds good.
Kristi Mast:Sounds good.
Zack Johnson:All right. Kristie Mass graduated from Soutler College with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Biblical and Religious Studies. She was honored to be a graduating member of Soutler's inaugural class in 2022. Before her time at Soutler, she completed a two-year program of study at Faith Builders, educate Zone Program and Guy's Mills, pennsylvania. A year of teaching high school in a small private school and her experience serving in a variety of formal and informal discipleship capacities has prepared her well for her position as Director of Student Life at Soutler. She is also in the process of publishing a women's Bible study that began as her capstone project at Soutler College.
Kristi Mast:So two corrections.
Zack Johnson:All right, let's see your arm.
Kristi Mast:I'm now Co-Director of Student Life with David Glick, and then also the women's Bible study was published in January of this year with Daughters of Promise ministries and is out and available in the world.
Zack Johnson:All right, we'll talk more about that. I'll read the second paragraph here. I'll just summarize it. You're interested in discipleship?
Kristi Mast:That's right.
Zack Johnson:David, you're also interested in discipleship. I am, yes, and you're Co-Directors of Student Life. What were your previous titles? I know this, but what did it used to be Like Last Fall?
Kristi Mast:Yeah, well, for a while I was Director of Student Life, while David was still finishing up, he was Student Life Assistant. But then it was Director of Student Life parentheses men. Directors of Student Life parentheses women. So we've gone back and forth on titles.
Zack Johnson:All right, tell me a little bit about what you do here and what you're passionate about on the campus, off campus, here, there, anywhere, so our jobs are very student facing.
David Glick:We work with students in anything that does not pertain to academics. So any needs or wants that come up in student life that are not directly connected to their academic enterprise here, and so we do a lot of student events. The biggest part of our jobs is the discipleship program here at Sauer. That's what we spend a lot of our time and energy on, and then miscellaneous check-ins with students. There's a lot of relational work to what we do here, so it's a nice collection of the relational and then a lot of administrative work as well.
Zack Johnson:Anything to add, Christie?
Kristi Mast:I think that covers it. Yeah, I think we're both really invested in being present and available for students, especially for spiritual and emotional needs.
Zack Johnson:So there are multiple avenues of discipleship in the world. There's church life, secondary school, family, the secular world many avenues of discipleship. Why higher ed? Why does higher ed make sense for discipleship and why? Yeah, you told me to ask you that question, so it's, I'm being. That's the softball right.
Kristi Mast:Yeah, well, I come from a background that traditionally a conservative, Anabaptist background that traditionally doesn't value higher ed, especially college and beyond.
Kristi Mast:But I also come from a family that's unique in that my grandfather, as an Amish young man, went to college and did an associate's degree, which was really unusual at that time. So I think personally I've seen how faith and education can go hand in hand and actually be used to strengthen the church and strengthen communities, and so I'm really excited about this role because we have this opportunity to, I think, change the narrative around higher education, not only for people who are coming from conservative settings where education isn't expected, but just in general. I think there's we've all noticed, I think, the drift towards liberalism in higher ed. So it's really exciting to me to be part of a college and have the opportunity to use college as a place where students come and they actually grow in their faith and their commitment to Christ and their passion and desire to serve the kingdom, and I think it's a really great place for that to happen, just because of the stage of life that students are at. I know David also has thoughts about this.
David Glick:Yeah, I come from a similar background and, I would say, to one where higher education was not valued or encouraged, and I think some of the themes that come from both of our backgrounds would be things like simplicity and practicality, and so, by large, people were farmers or tradespersons, and so that goes hand in hand with both a dismissal of higher education but then also maybe not so much need for higher education. But that's changing as it's changing over the world, and there are more and more people from our backgrounds who are going into white collar jobs and becoming engineers, becoming doctors, becoming a killings, and with that comes the need for at least a bachelor's degree in most cases. And so I think, wanting to be a part of a place where people are asking okay, how can we do that and do it well, how can we bring the values that we, that we do hold and and not see higher education as a place that will take those values away from us or we'll take us in a different direction? But maybe we can bring those and maybe the college can be a place where where those are still upheld and we do discipleship there, much like we've always done it, and but we're just bringing it into the, the space of higher education, and so, yeah, discipleship is has always been important.
David Glick:It's been important most of all in the church, but the, the higher education setting, is a place that's full of young people, and in a Christian college it's full of Christian young people. And so the, the usual questions of vocation what am I made to do? What's my, my life going to be? What is God asking me to do? All of those are their discipleship questions, the question of of Jesus and his, his mandate and his call for my life, for our lives is is a big part of that. And so to be a Christian university without taking discipleship seriously, I think, would be a big mistake. And so that's, I think, a huge part of our, our passion for doing discipleship here at Sadler in a higher education setting.
Zack Johnson:Can you brainstorm with me? This is no, no right answer. Give me some synonyms for discipleship, for I know it's kind of a loaded word, and so how do you think about discipleship and what it? What does it all entail? I know there's a lot of different thinking on this.
Kristi Mast:God David.
David Glick:Okay, yeah, a few synonyms are. One word that has come up in our conversation sometimes is the word apprenticeship, and I think that is probably most commonly used by a man named Dallas Willard and then some other people who have who have known from him John Mark Kovmer. Certainly, john Mark Kovmer is influenced by Willard.
Zack Johnson:Yes, very much so.
David Glick:Yeah, and so I think what that word tries to denote is is the simplicity of discipleship, trying to do discipleship the way that we see Jesus doing it with his 12 disciples and then maybe with the, the crowds that followed him beyond that, and it's it's trying to name discipleship as something that goes beyond, say, a weekly Bible study, but but more discipleship as a way of life and an apprenticeship really gets it the idea of okay, we do acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God and but we also acknowledge him as our master teacher and the one that we we learn from and follow. So the word apprenticeship has been something that has come up. Other synonyms might be words like mentorship or accompaniment. I think those are probably more narrow words for discipleship because they they do get at the idea of maybe an older, more experienced person walking with a younger, less experienced person, which is certainly a very valuable way of doing discipleship, but it's also not the entirety of what discipleship is.
Kristi Mast:I think for me James K Smith has been really foundational in how I think about discipleship and what did formation in general.
Zack Johnson:Who is that and what are you right?
Kristi Mast:So he's a Christian philosopher, and beyond he's written a lot of things, but most most significantly a book you are what you love, just kind of the popular version of his larger series on cultural liturgies.
Kristi Mast:So, specifically, desiring the Kingdom is the book that really impacted me in thinking about this.
Kristi Mast:But he talks a lot about how, at our core, we are, we are what we love, we are lovers at our core, and so discipleship, then, is not just about training people to do certain things or to believe certain things, but is actually training their hearts, training their hearts to love, to love God and then to love other people and to love his kingdom and throw their whole lives.
Kristi Mast:That flows out into what you do, it flows into what you believe, it flows into every part of your life. But that's often how I think about discipleship, and another thing that that Smith talks about is these cultural liturgies, these things that we do in the cultures or our homes, our churches, and then even the broader culture. He talks about going to the mall as this liturgical experience where you are inundated with all kinds of messages and worldviews and also attempts to capture your love and attention. And so I think, when I think about discipleship at Sattler. I think how do we build a culture that cultivates love for Christ, love for his kingdom, and the things that we do every single day move us, move our hearts and our desires closer to the kingdom?
Zack Johnson:Got it. I'm going to sort of pause and try to stand on something. Now there's anecdotal evidence or an anecdotal story that I'll talk about and I'll use the word character formation as sort of a placeholder under word I want to think about Last year. There was a family that lives across the river in Cambridge and their son got a full ride scholarship to Harleard and then an offer to the Air Force Academy where I went to school. So I was kind of really interested in watching what this particular student was going to do, and his father in particular is actually a chaplain throughout the systems there and there's a huge, there's this huge concern that especially secular higher ed is failing at forming character. That's a really big swing at a lot of big institutions. I'm not trying to sort of say that, but and then now in the world, unless you live under a rock, there's a huge I'll even say after the week with Israel, hamas, palestine, there's a huge backlash over what does it mean to be people of character in the middle of this, and some of you have probably seen a lot of higher ed institutional names in the media and things like that. So how can we be thinking of sort of a holistic experience for higher ed. And how do you think about sort of addressing that issue of can you form character? Can you put someone through a natural program that will form character for the good as opposed for the opposite? There and Kristi, you mentioned this at open house I often talked about this discipleship laboratory.
Zack Johnson:I actually I stole that from the Air Force Academy too. They called the Air Force Academy a leadership laboratory. West Point says the same thing for army officers where, like you get to bombard people with different scenarios, different circumstances, different activities in hopes that they like learn lessons and you don't have to have it all sort of programmatically figured out. That was a rant. But tell me about character development. And is it possible to be a young person detached from community in a city, in the city of Boston, actually having your character strengthened? I'll even say it from a biblical lens as opposed to sort of a secular lens, because I think it might be helpful. Sorry, any any thoughts or comments there? That's a big rant.
David Glick:Yeah, I think in a sentence we do believe that it's possible, and you did, you used the phrase disconnected from community in in a big city, in a college setting, which is something that we're we're really hoping doesn't happen. For the people who come to Sauer, that community would be something that they find here and that that would be a part of a central part of the way that their character gets formed. And so this is a question that we think about a lot. How does character get formed? How do we're a college in the liberal arts tradition and the word virtue gets used a lot and just the way that people have thought about this question, and so we think about it a lot.
David Glick:And I think, to change the question from can it happen to how does it happen, how is it, how is it that God does His work in the hearts, minds, lives of young people? How does that work happen? What does it take to to sort of see that happen? How can the college be a place that is as easy and as straightforward as possible for those things to happen? And so, yeah, there are more questions than answers here for us, but I think there are other people who have sort of thought about this idea and have tried to come up with.
David Glick:I mentioned Dallas Willard and he has this term, that he calls it a curriculum of Christlikeness, which is not so much a curriculum with clear borders and direction as it is just him saying no, there can be this way that we should know what it is that forms people into Christlikeness. And so I think we really believe that for young people and it does start with a hunger and a thirst, or a heart posture of the Psalmist, and I think that is where the ideas from people like James K Smith are relevant for for discipleship, because it's the question of how does how do people develop? How do young people develop a hunger and a thirst for more of Jesus? And then the second question from that is what is the atmosphere that we then create for them to bring that hunger and thirst into and for the spirit to do a work in their hearts and in their lives, to see them grow in character and hopefully, when they leave college, to be young men and women with with firm character.
Zack Johnson:Anything that I have to see subtract.
Kristi Mast:Yeah, I think. Just I would add that we talk about discipleship being relational discipleship, and so that's a deep conviction, I think, of all of us here at the college, that discipleship always happens in the context of relationship, and it's not just in the context of relationship between, you know, mentor and mentee, but that there's a horizontal relationship across with peers. But then ultimately, that that relationship is with with Jesus himself and with the Holy Spirit. And so we tell our students that the discipleship program, the things that we do, we think a lot about it and we we have we do try to design this curriculum of Christlikeness, but ultimately it is just a trellis or a container. It is up to the Holy Spirit to actually do that work and it's also up to the student themselves to to pursue that. And, yeah, we're constantly trying to to learn and grow and figure out how we can, how we can make that environment even more ripe for that hunger and that desire.
Zack Johnson:So the trellis analogy a trellis is what a vine grows on exactly, and so it's kind of you design the trellis and then expect life to grow up after it. But it's not an automatic process you need.
Kristi Mast:Yeah.
Zack Johnson:Life, relationship, love.
David Glick:Yeah, and also, too, that we we try to, I think, keep it as simple as possible, and so we learn from people's names that we've we've already mentioned here, but in the end we do look to, to some of the, the tradition that the college places itself in, and and being named after people like Michael Marguerita Sattler, who, who just made so much of Jesus and his teachings, and so, at the end of the day, it is discipleship to Jesus and it's becoming more like him in all that we do, and so if it can be as as simple as that and as powerful as that, I think we we will be delighted.
Zack Johnson:Right, I want to spend a little bit of time zooming in on each of your different journeys. Maybe, chrissy, for you I'd like to start at Sattler and then maybe lay out, talk a little bit more about your capstone work and what you opened up with. And then, david, I'd love to hear about your studies after Sattler too, and that that journey as well. But maybe we can start with you, chrissy.
Kristi Mast:Yeah, so came to Sattler really wanting to be equipped to not only study the Bible myself but also to teach others how to study scripture, and specifically women, who might not have grown up with with a lot of tools or understanding.
Kristi Mast:I also felt like there's there are good resources out there for women, but often they tend to be kind of watered down and 10 towards maybe some spoon feeding of, especially when it comes to scripture and exegetical work, and I think that there's a place for that that we need.
Kristi Mast:Depending on where you're at, you need something just really basic, really elementary.
Kristi Mast:But for me it's been absolutely transformative to learn how to study scripture on my own and how to actually get the skills and tools to access the Bible just through my own study and not necessarily needing it to be mediated by other people, although I'm a firm believer that scriptures made to be read in community.
Kristi Mast:Anyway, so this was some of my vision coming into Sattler and why it came for a biblical studies degree and so through my studies at Sattler, just gained so much in learning biblical languages and just practicing a lot of digging into scripture and the context, and so out of that for my capstone project, had this vision to create a resource for women that would lead them into scripture and not just, not just to like one specific passage to study on their own, but that would actually teach them how to study the Bible for themselves, and so ended up with a 10 week Bible study that is actually a biblical theology Bible study, so it traces a theme of priesthood from Genesis all the way to Revelation, and so you're hitting different genres. You're hitting different, all kinds of different passages in scripture, and and then each lesson is also paired with some kind of Bible study skill that you then practice on on the passage itself and it's it's written for a group because, like I said, I do believe that scripture is best accessed in community.
Kristi Mast:We learn so much when we're digging into the word with other people. But it's also set up so that you can do it as an individual, and I wrote it mostly for my own sake and also so that you know. Maybe I'd send a PDF to people if they were looking for something, but it was really remarkable how pieces came together in the spring semester my senior year to actually start the process of getting it published. Daughters of Promise is a small.
Zack Johnson:Can you say the website, just so? How do you find it?
Kristi Mast:Sure, if you just Google Daughters of Promise, kingdom of Priests, you'll find the link. So they actually approached me in the spring. They heard about my project and wanted to publish it, and so the spring of my senior year and then in January of 2023 is actually published and there's a teacher's guide as well. So, yeah, that that has been a lot of my heart in coming and I think it was really satisfying to be able to see it all come together in a in a product like that.
Zack Johnson:I bought eight of them and gave them out to Gis because I thought they were really well done and I wanted to ask a little bit more about the content. That's sort of the publication process. There's the content and then there's also a very I'll just say visually appealing nature of your Bible study. That I found very striking and I'll even say, daunting.
Zack Johnson:Yeah, I'm like if I'm ever gonna publish something. There's no way it's gonna look this good. Yeah, tell me a little bit about that process, about the writing of the project, the study itself plus the aesthetics, and coming up with this product to be shipped at the end. I'd love to hear a little bit about it.
Kristi Mast:Yeah. So it was a huge. It definitely, definitely was a process that was. There were so many people along the way that gave a lot of input into that, so into the writing itself. Dr Jesse Schumann and also Dr Paula Michela were both part of my capstone panel and they gave huge input into the actual content and making sure that it was theologically sound, cohesive. They were yeah, they were invaluable advisors in that process.
Kristi Mast:And then after that I had considered trying to do self publishing. I have an older sister who has amazing design skills and creativity and so I thought maybe you know, between her and I we can figure something out. But as I started looking into it, the process was totally overwhelming. So when Daughters of Promise Approach and Offered, I was so excited because, unlike a traditional publisher, I knew that I would have a little more say and control over how the end product looked. But also I really trust their design choices and so I call my older sister my creative director. She did a lot in just making some of the design choices but then working together with Daughters of Promise, and Daughters of Promise did everything in terms of layout, design, putting it together, helping making sure that it flowed well and was easy to to go through and readable and all of that.
Kristi Mast:So the visual and product, all of the kudos go to Ray, especially Slaybaugh, who's the editor-in-chief there, and my sister Heidi helped as well. Some with that, but they get all the kudos for that and that was a huge hurdle. A huge hurdle that I didn't have to. I got to have input into but I didn't have to direct and it's actually it's really special. There's a painting in the um table of contents that I actually have in my office. It's a really special painting to me and so there's some small touches in there that are personalized as well. Um, that probably wouldn't have been able to happen if I had gone with the traditional publisher. That was a big yeah conglomerate.
Zack Johnson:I'm gonna ask a sort I'm gonna try to formulate this question in my mind. I've read phenomenal uh tidbits of writings before without the visual appeal, and there's, there's gold in there, but it's really hard to sort of digest the, the content. What's the interplay between words on paper versus the art and how? How do you think about sort of putting these things out Like the Bible itself doesn't have art attached to it, but we can draw life from it and yet there's always like a little bit of a, an interplay of like how many, how many layers of art do you add to something that's already full of truth in itself, and is it the necessity? What's the balance? That's a hard question, but do you have any thoughts on that?
Kristi Mast:I think, um, the authors of the Bible have a lot more street cred than I do. Yeah, I think it. I think it is. It's a question of I think there's so many things that go into that question right, your context, who's the who is the material?
Kristi Mast:For I really wanted it to be accessible to women across across the board. It's one of the big pieces of feedback from there was actually a launch team that got to see it first and and do some of the lessons and a lot of them said, wow, this was a lot more challenging than I expected, but it was good, and so I really like the content is challenging and so, um, but because I wanted it to be accessible for everybody, I think making the visuals really appealing and something that draws you in kind of counteracts maybe some of the the things that are more challenging. So, yeah, I think I think context, audience makes a really big difference. If you're writing for a bunch of um, a bunch of you know PhD students, then probably there's a little bit more inherent drive that they have, you know, to access your work and your research. But I think, especially when you're you're writing for a popular audience, design visuals are so important, especially in this, this day and age, where we're we're saturated with it.
Zack Johnson:Yeah, and I actually I have this, uh, I have this hunch in my my mind that because are the people who believe similar things to what we believe haven't yet cracked this code on how to make, how to, how to make our ideas spread more naturally? And there's been, like massive media companies that have done really a good job spreading big ideas. Maybe it's an untapped or not untapped, but more people should be doing it. Yeah, I think we can feel kind of unvirtuous when we focus on appearances, right, Because it's like well, this is just like great content.
Kristi Mast:It should just speak for itself. But maybe, to use an analogy from food, a lot of you know great chefs say you eat with your eyes before you eat with your mouth, and it's kind of like I think great visual design is is a great way to you know, visual design is kind of trying to remove a barrier for people so that it they're drawn in organically and it's, I think, the the essence of beauty is attraction and so that you're attracted naturally. There's not. You don't have to overcome that barrier of you know, if you have a a pile of just like goop on your plate, even if it's the most delicious thing in the world, if it looks terrible, you're a lot less likely to try it. So yeah, I think we can feel unvirtuous when we focus on design and attractiveness, but I think it's actually a way that we can serve the people that we're trying to reach.
Zack Johnson:Yeah, all right, now we're going to pivot hard to you, mr Blick. Tell me about your journey through Satellar to where you are right now, and yeah, yeah, I started college at age 27.
David Glick:So I guess about 10 years older than than the Irish college student and started school online. And I think, being in the stage of life that I was in, was pretty convinced that I didn't want the traditional college experience that I I wanted to keep working, I wanted to keep my doing the things that I was doing and just do school on the side. And a year into that, really disappointed and frustrated with the process and found doing school online challenging and and lacking both in academic rigor and then also in, I think, just the structure of how it's done, in that it's done in isolation, it's set up for the individual to do on their own time in their own place, and it just is a really terrible way to learn it. Taking the community out of the picture entirely is is just it guts the the education experience.
David Glick:And so I just decided a year after that that I I just didn't want to do it anymore, and that's when I first started looking at Sattler and then ended up applying to Sattler and coming to Sattler and searching for rigorous academics, searching for an education that would actually challenge me and make me grow, and then also searching for for community that was also excited about learning and to be able to learn in community, so ended up doing the. I did the bachelors of arts and history here and you transferred, you transferred, I did.
David Glick:I transferred my, my online credits and then finished in two and a half years here once I came, and it chose the the history degree for for a few reasons. I wanted to be a better writer. I've always enjoyed trying to put ideas to to paper and but didn't take any writing classes or instruction in any of my school up to to the college level. So I didn't do high school so there's no, no writing there and just really wanted to learn and I felt like doing a history degree would make me, it would force me to become a better writer. My history professors would force me to to write well.
David Glick:And then the second reason is just that I I wasn't doing college primarily for the degree. I was doing it primarily to to learn and grow, and so doing a liberal arts degree, like history was, it seemed like a good, a good way to accomplish that. And so, yeah, that this what brought me to Sattler and then graduated here last year, came back to work and then also have have started a graduate degree at a local school here at Boston College and started a a master's of divinity there and there in their school of theology and ministry. And that's just only about seven weeks old, so that's very much just. I'm very much just starting that and figuring out what does this look like? How does it, how does it happen alongside my work? How does my work influence my study and my study influence my work? And so, yeah, that's where I'm at now. I'm still a student. I hope to be a student for a lot longer and then to to be a learner for for a lifetime.
Zack Johnson:Can you tell me a little bit about the process, about applying, choosing grad schools and that whole, that whole journey and story?
David Glick:Yeah, I mentioned starting college late, but I think starting grad school later as well probably influence the approach that I took. So for me it was it was primary. I applied to a few schools outside the Boston area but but I primarily wanted to stay here to do grad school if it was possible, both because I enjoyed my job here at the college but also because I I have found community here in in the city that is very meaningful to me and and that I would be a very low to to leave even for a good grad school opportunity, and so so I think my my own stage of life influenced that, and so I was probably um. Location was the biggest factor in in where I went to school. So I applied to about about seven places. I got accepted to most of them and then when I got an offer from the school that I really wanted to go here to here in Boston and the scholarship funds to make it possible, it became the easiest decision to do.
Zack Johnson:You got a full right offer. I did yeah, and to other schools as well.
David Glick:Yeah, yes, do they include Ivy League schools.
Zack Johnson:They do yes, yeah, I'm just trying to brag a little bit about it. I get to brag a little bit about the institution. We've had 100% acceptance rate into students pursuing graduate degrees. I think I said that last year. So you're one of those, so I'm really proud of you.
David Glick:Yeah.
Zack Johnson:I wanted to ask a follow-up question along the lines of this is going to be a tricky one, steadying a biblical theme at an institution that you might not fully align with 100% of their beliefs. I'll use an anecdotal conversation I had that I mentioned that you were setting, at the place you're setting and someone. Their first reaction was keep a really close eye on him. This is a serious conversation. I said all right, I will, because there's an idea that even in the realm of really top tier programs, maybe the essence of what the institution stands for might not be exactly what you stand for. And so how do you think about your studies in that light? And I think I've experienced this too, where I go to an institution, but I know I don't want the whole package, but I want to be trained and refined in a particular set of ways, maybe not the core of my belief system. Do you have any thoughts on that and how you think about it?
David Glick:A few. Yes, so for people who don't know, boston College is a Catholic school and they are specifically a Jesuit school, and so the School of Theology and Ministry where I'm doing my degree is also run by the Jesuits, and probably about half of the professors are Jesuit, and all the professors are Catholic.
David Glick:There's one Quaker there whom I haven't met yet but I'm looking forward to that day and maybe talking about our common peace traditions. And then most of my fellow students are Catholic as well, and so very, very strong Catholic tradition. But that is also one of the things that made the school appealing for me. I knew that if I went there I would be learning from a strong intellectual tradition and I didn't feel like that was true of all the places that I applied to, to be frank and then also that I would be engaging a body of ideas, both theological ideas, but also doctrinal ideas and ways that we think about. What does it mean to live the Christian life that I would have to grapple with and that I could put my own tradition and my own beliefs into conversation with but I'm putting them into conversation with a cohesive body of teaching and not a collection, if you will, not a mishmash, which I felt like I would be more prone to find at Protestant seminary. So that was appealing to me. I do. I certainly have some cautions as well.
David Glick:I think maybe I would see two things that I'm hopeful give me a sense of security and safety to go into a setting that's very different from my own and to learn theologically there.
David Glick:One is just my own connection to community here in Boston, both at the college and at the church that I attend, where I can bring the things that I'm learning in school into conversation with people who I do life with and do church with, and to say this is what I'm learning, this is how I'm thinking about it.
David Glick:How does that strike you? What are the implications of it? Can you help me think through it? And the other is that I really do think that my time in the history program at Sattler did give me a lot of tools to think creatively and honestly about ideas. And what do you do with ideas that you encounter? How do you think through them logically? How do you think through them theologically? How is it that you grapple with ideas and matters of truth and how you live your life and do so faithfully and thoughtfully and not either swallow them wholesale or maybe reject them without examining and saying is there something here that I can learn from? And also asking what are the things here that I most definitely do not want to take in use for my own life Got it.
Zack Johnson:Chris, I'm going to jump over to you on kind of a follow up question here. I got a question the other day about the discipleship program and how it relates to the word indoctrination, so this will be a fun one. When you think about your work and even some of the greater Christian calls, what's the difference between? Maybe this isn't the best way to phrase this, but are we discipling on doctrine? Are we discipling on practice, specifically your efforts? Are you trying to get people to believe a certain set of doctrines or do you think about it differently? How do you relate those two sort of ideas? That's the question.
Kristi Mast:No, it's a really good question and I think I definitely would separate out the doctrine and practices. And we are focusing on practices, but they're practices that the church has done for hundreds and hundreds of years, things like prayer and reading scripture, fasting, intentional purity and what that means of keeping yourself whole and being a person of integrity in every part of you. I do think that Jesus' teachings and his words specifically in the Sermon on the Mount and the Great Commission, those are things that we turn to again and again for our sense of morality and the kinds of character that we want our students to have and to exemplify. So, and then also the beatitudes, I think, that kind of character that's marked by peace and by humility and service, patience, all of those things are also things that we turn to. So I don't see it as indoctrination. We don't talk about doctrine. I don't think ever.
Zack Johnson:In the discipleship program.
Kristi Mast:Yeah, it's much more about practices and character formation as modeled by Jesus, specifically in the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes.
Zack Johnson:So what are the practices? Like, some of the practices we think about and hopefully this is coming out of our daily acknowledgement of these are things I care about, so I try to teach others how to do them. I think about it with my own little children. Now I'm like how am I going to get my little kids to do the things I think are important? Yeah, you said prayer. What are some of the other ones?
Kristi Mast:Yeah, so typically there's been a set of questions that students ask each other weekly and this varies. We give a structure but students are free to tweak and modify that structure within their own groups and focus on the things that they really want to focus on, but in general, wanting students to cultivate the spiritual discipline. So, prayer, daily time in prayer and in the scriptures. There's a question that a lot of students use to touch on purity, which is have you viewed anything pornographic, immoral or foolish this week? And obviously that expands just beyond sexual integrity but into whole life purity.
Zack Johnson:And what are you consuming?
Kristi Mast:Yeah, what are you consuming? And then also questions about relationships how are your relationships with the people that you live with, and with your family and the people out in the world? And then, finally, evangelism is also something that we really care about and want to be helping students practice, sharing their faith, and again, that happens, I think, on different levels for different people, depending on where they're at and where they are in their spiritual journey. But, yeah, I'd be interested to hear what David would add.
David Glick:Yeah, no, I really see that as the backbone of discipleship here, and we do also employ in some of the work that others have done on spiritual disciplines, which is just the name given to the practices that the Church has historically practiced over the centuries, and they are simple things like prayer, worship, confession, and so just trying to make sure that whatever we ask of our students is the same things that the Church has historically cured about and that are the markers of a true disciple of Jesus.
Zack Johnson:Fasting too right.
David Glick:Yeah.
Zack Johnson:I was just going to say when I was a journey group leader back in the day, we did some fasts and I don't think I'd ever heard of group fasts at a college level. But I think most people there's too many people who haven't done fasting. And I think that's a big one that I'm looking forward to.
David Glick:Yeah, and there are lots of upperclassmen and other people here at the school who would tell you their stories of having discovered fasting either here or elsewhere and the difference that incorporating it as a discipline has made in their spiritual life.
Zack Johnson:So this is going to be a question to help me think about the institution in my role. How do I talk about the difference, the importance of doctrine and the importance of practice? And one of my dreams is to and I think this is a personal dream to establish a set of I'm going to use the word interdenominational practices that can be celebrated and sharpened together and I think everyone can sort of be on the same page on those things. Yet we're also attempting to build a culture that maybe doesn't. Everyone doesn't believe exactly the same doctrines. In general, there's a wall on how much is acceptable there. But how do we build that culture and think about that?
Zack Johnson:Even in broader Christianity, I think that's a really big question that I've been kind of spinning in my mind about. Hey, I can actually interact with people who don't believe all the same doctrines as me, but I still don't want to apologize because I think doctrines it's a very important thing, but you don't want to set up too many walls right between each other. Help me think about those two ideas together. Maybe another way to say it is like is it safe to come here if you don't have a certain set of beliefs about the Sermon on the Mount. That's something that many of us who started here hold very, very dearly, and literally Anything to add to that, rand.
David Glick:I'll just say that we really hope to be a place that makes much of Jesus and Jesus' life and His teachings are central to so much of what we do and that, if that is important for you too, that you would feel safe here, you would feel like this is a place where you can come and learn and contribute what you bring from your own faith, tradition or your own upbringing, and that we could learn to follow Jesus together. Of course, the connection of doctrine and practice is always going to be there. They do. They're tightly connected and but I think, in terms of discipleship at the college, practice is what we focus on.
David Glick:You will come into contact with both in your classroom and from other students when you come to the school. You'll come into contact with lots of different beliefs and belief systems and doctrines and you as a learner will almost you'll be forced to put those in conversation with what you bring to the college and perhaps to have meaningful discussions about doctrine together. But that's not the that will happen in college. But the baseline is practice, and the baseline for our practice is just simply the life and the teachings of Jesus, and I really believe that we can use that as the to look to Jesus as our master teacher and use that for the baseline of what we do together, and that would be a platform that we can invite Christians of all backgrounds to Right.
Zack Johnson:Anything that matters, christy.
Kristi Mast:Yeah, I think, just to use kind of philosophical terms, there's virtue ethics, which is about cultivating virtue, and then there's kind of a deontological approach, which is more about doctrine and these really clear principles and that's how you decide how to live your life.
Kristi Mast:And then there's the more teleological approach, which is thinking about the end goal and everything's towards that tailows the end. And I think, when I think about our work here, it's to cultivate virtue in students and to cultivate their love, to cultivate their heart. It's also to give them a vision of the kingdom and what they're pressing towards. And I think that middle piece of doctrine, the principles, the really like the more hard lines that you draw for yourself and that you, yeah, that you, your convictions, I think that is the work of the Holy Spirit to form those. And, like David said, you're going to come across things, but I trust that if we focus on helping students model Christ, then the Holy Spirit will do that work in them and he will lead them into truth. He will lead them into yeah, that's not necessarily our job.
Zack Johnson:So just I want to go down a little bit of line of myth-busting here. So the school is named after Michael and Margaret a Sattler, both of whom were martyred for their practice of adult baptism. Do students here have to be baptized as adults to come?
Kristi Mast:No.
Zack Johnson:So not necessarily.
Kristi Mast:And I think we've actually had a student who came it's not baptized as adult graduated remained in the same tradition.
Zack Johnson:And that's not to say we don't have thoughts about that, but it's possible.
David Glick:And that we would never pressure that student to do something that wasn't in their convictions.
Zack Johnson:List of church. Do we have a white list of churches, a black list of churches?
Kristi Mast:No.
Zack Johnson:OK, that's another yeah.
David Glick:Yeah, thanks yeah.
Zack Johnson:Yeah.
Kristi Mast:I'll also mention I think David touched on this of we want students to bring the strength of their tradition to the Sattler community, and I think of the same student that we referenced earlier. He came from a strong tradition where they prayed the Psalms daily, regularly, and he brought that to our community and it impacted so many of us. I pray this on semi-regularly, partly because of his influence, and so I think we really do want we recognize that different spiritual traditions have these really beautiful strengths and we want students to bring that and that we're all enriched by that diversity.
Zack Johnson:And I just think I wanted to chime in there again to the practice of doctrine and practice or the relationship, what we found. We have all our students often read this book called Atomic Habits by James Clear. I think we did that. This is number two. And there's this idea that find one habit that will feed your whole life. And I do think that this whole there's that keystone habit idea as well. It's like what's the one habit that you can latch onto in your life that will sort of feed everything else, daily time with God. In the scriptures, if you can nail that it seems like doctrine flows from your own personal pursuit of God, and then you can add layers of community on. Would you add anything to the sort of habit formation or that concept?
David Glick:you're not necessarily no, I think that's wonderful, and I think somebody said one habit is worth 100 goals, and we really do try to live by that principle. And, yes, certainly, getting the habits right can be important to forming the right doctrine. But, yeah, there is this common belief that what we do only flows out of what we believe, and, in truth, it can very often be the other way around as well, that what we do influences what we believe. And so, yeah, practice is important.
Zack Johnson:All right, we'll switch gears here. Tell me a little bit about your reading life and your reading habits. What books do you recommend to people that you've enjoyed in your past? We'll start with you, Christy.
Kristi Mast:Sorry, I told you what are we reading right now, or what are we recommending?
Zack Johnson:What books do you recommend to people? Or maybe you've bought someone a book more than once. Maybe that's a question I'll ask you.
Kristi Mast:So I think Desiring the Kingdom by James K Smith is one that's in kind of my hall of classics. That has been really formational for me. Yeah, I think, a book that I've given a lot of people. I'll have to think about that one. But, dorothy Sayers, the Mind of the Maker is also one that has been very foundational for me in thinking about how we are creative beings and how that pattern of creativity comes from God himself. And I think those are two of my hall of famers.
Zack Johnson:All right, any hall of famers for you, david.
David Glick:I was very influenced by CS Lewis when I was new to the Christian faith, and what he did for me was that he made the Christian faith both truthful but, even more than that, winsome and beautiful. And he did for me what I think we have talked about, that we want students to experience, which is that you see Jesus and his teachings as attractive, as not just useful but beautiful, and so he's someone I go back to often when I think that my faith might be becoming just a little bit too pragmatic, and he helps me to see the wonder in the Christian faith.
Zack Johnson:He has a lot of writings. Any one in particular or any couple.
David Glick:His novels. He still might be the best Christian novelist of the 20th century in that he has this way of preaching to you and you don't know that you're being preached to. You finish a novel and you go oh that was a wonderful story, but a week later you'll be going. I think he was saying he might have been saying this about the Christian life, and he has a way of communicating profound Christian ideas in a story form that just linger with you and poke you down then the Great Divorce.
Zack Johnson:You like the Great Divorce? Yeah, I like that one too. I just read a book, a tangent oh, you've read this A Severe Mercy about. I was baffled about from the Severe Mercy because it's Chrissy, do you remember?
Kristi Mast:the author's name Sheldon Van Ocken. That's right.
Zack Johnson:He was basically almost converted into Christianity through just pen paling with CS Lewis and I was really struck with Lewis's care, for I just really respected him more after reading somebody who pen paled with him. And he was converted through his relationship with CS Lewis and I was like I gotta write more letters to people. I read that book and I was like man. One man could change the whole course of a man's life just from responding to a letter he wrote. Have you read that one?
David Glick:I have, yeah, and I think the book itself is beautiful. But I read his story and I think, oh, there's someone else for whom he obviously met Lewis in person after the letters. But just the impact that Lewis's own approach to life and bringing the joy and the winsomeness of the Christian faith had on Sheldon, and then the way that Sheldon communicates those ideas through his own story, which is called A Severe Mercy, a story of him and his wife. But I, yeah, I think to me it speaks to the form, of the power of the form of story to not just communicate ideas but to change us for the better.
Zack Johnson:Got it. Do either of you have any extreme passion projects or passion ideas that you like to chat about that I didn't touch on yet today, kombuchatdrnk.
David Glick:Well, the kombucha is on high ages. I'm both a grade school student and I hold a job and some things have to go to make room for that, but I am. I'm working on something that has been a dream of mine for a long, long time, which is to take a cargo van and convert it into a camper van, and it hopefully will serve another one of my dreams, which is just to spend more time in the outdoors than I do currently. But that, yeah, it's a passion project, for sure, and it also gives me a way to do something with my hands where, as a student and as someone who works at a school, I don't get a lot of chances to do that.
Zack Johnson:Hold your thought. I'm going to ask you. You told me one time that the Adirondacks were one of your favorite places on earth.
David Glick:The Adirondacks, yeah, yeah.
Zack Johnson:My pronunciation. Why do you say that it's amazing?
David Glick:It's five million acres of preserved wilderness, some of it relatively unspoiled. You can go there and walk in places where it's likely that no living person has ever set their foot before, and the ability to do that is just thrilling Got it, Christy?
Zack Johnson:did anything come to mind for you?
Kristi Mast:I'm pretty passionate about food and cooking and the way that it brings people together, but specifically right now I'm really into foraging for edible mushrooms.
Zack Johnson:You knew it. Tell me about this.
Kristi Mast:So I joined the Boston Mycological Club this summer, which mycology is just the study of mushrooms, and a whole world opened up to me of mushrooms are crazy. They're literally insane the diversity and yeah, so I've been spending a lot of time in the woods looking for mushrooms.
Zack Johnson:Defend your critics already. You're not looking for psychedelics. No, sir, you're looking for mushrooms for the taste of mushrooms, mushrooms that are tasty, they're healthy for you as well.
Kristi Mast:Exactly. I actually just found some on Saturday that I'm trying to grind up a new book. I didn't drink as tea because it's anti-cursingogenic and is supposed to be a herbal remedy. I'm a little skeptical, but Say the word again.
Zack Johnson:What kind of club is it?
Kristi Mast:Mycological.
Zack Johnson:How many of those exist in the world? Actually loads, I think I was just going to try to sell Boston, yeah.
Kristi Mast:Boston is the oldest non-professional mycological club, so the oldest amateur club in the United States.
Zack Johnson:What are some of your favorite mushrooms?
Kristi Mast:Hen of the Woods, which is in season right now Probably top 10 things that I've ever eaten Hen of the Woods In terms of just pure ingredients. Roasted it with some yeah anyway, it was incredible. And then hedgehog mushrooms actually are another favorite. Both are in season right now. I was trying to figure out if I had time after work today to get out into the woods, but I think I'm going to have to wait. Yeah, you got to stay at least till 6 pm tonight.
Zack Johnson:No, I'm kidding, so I told you before starting. The people who will listen to this are probably the people that are subscribed somewhere to a Sattler marketing campaign. Do you have anything else that you'd like to share with the people who might be listening? It's kind of hard to narrow that audience. It could be students, it could be parents, it could be just people passionate about Christianity or even higher ed or Boston. Anything else to share with a listener is David will start with you. If not, then you can pass as well.
David Glick:Yeah, just to say, come visit us. We love visitors and if you're interested in what we're doing, send us a letter. We can reach us via the OUS mail system if you want, or you can just come in person and we'd love to meet you.
Zack Johnson:What's our address?
David Glick:It's 100 Cambridge Street, suite 1701 in Boston, subcode 02114.
Zack Johnson:Nailed it. I'm impressed. And what's an email? In case people don't pen that I don't know. Info at Sattleredu. Is that right? That'll find its way to the right person.
Kristi Mast:Info at Sattleredu yeah, that's what I was going to say, but I'll maybe just add come visit us and tell us what you're passionate about. Tell us about how you see God changing the world and your community, or maybe even just you, and we would love to hear about it.
Zack Johnson:All right, Well, thank you for joining me. Thank you, Kristi, thank you David. I was going to put some Sattler shout outs on, just for people to be aware. We just had an open house this last weekend. Does anyone know how many people showed up at that Friday? Was it like 40 something?
Zack Johnson:So we're actively looking for the right students to come here, the right fit. That's one of our biggest needs and if you know somebody who you think should attend here, please, please, please put them on our radar. Come and visit us is the best thing to do. But when does our early application do, Clark, do you remember November 15.? So, if you're thinking about it, we have an early round of applications. So start an application or get someone to start, get them to come visit, and then the second round is just do sometime in the spring, right, and I just wanted to also mention that anyone listening we started Sattler with.
Zack Johnson:I'm trying to tell I don't know if I'm looking at Kristi or the camera, I'm just going to tell both of you. We start Sattler with these three C's, these three guiding C's of core curriculum which I just interviewed Dr Schumann about last week, about the biblical core curriculum Christian character development. Character development was a sudden seed. We didn't know if it was a Christian or character. They both serve a C, which you two just really hit on here. I think a lot about what we're trying to do in terms of Christian character and developing a holistic person discipleship program, relational discipleship. So thanks for telling me what we need.
Zack Johnson:The third C is cost, and I've been sort of trying to trickle this out, but the institution is really trying to throw lunch torpedoes at the finances being a barrier to entry here. So if you're thinking about this and you're worried about cost, keep your ears open for something incredibly exciting. Keep your eyes open for how Sattler is going to not only revolutionize higher education but also the cost of that. Any other teasers for that? Tony helped me with a really good teaser. How do I?
Kristi Mast:be excited. Keep your ear to the ground.
Zack Johnson:Be excited. I heard that I made an announcement. I heard somebody was crying tears of joy.
Kristi Mast:That's true, somebody even clapped after I made the announcement which never happens here.
Zack Johnson:I'm kidding, Unless you ask it. Any other teasers for that, David? All right. Well, with that being said, enjoy your Mondays and the rest of your week. We don't yet have a title for this podcast. Do you want to tease being in Pennsylvania in November?
David Glick:Oh yeah, we don't have details yet.
Zack Johnson:Yeah, if you're having to live in Pennsylvania. I will be there Friday November. I'll be there the whole week, but Friday November 3rd I'll sort of have a gathering at something called the Speckled Hen where I'm going to tease this idea of tuition more about it being an exciting thing to be a part of eventssattleredu. All right, this episode was brought to you by our Sackler College in Boston, massachusetts. Thanks for joining us.